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ONI Biology thread deleted?

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blash365    590
2 hours ago, nonoxyl said:

Jokes aside, I would ask, wouldn't the discussion here be more "on target" and the bug reports more accurate if we had a general idea from Klei on what kinds of game behavior are intended?

Yes, it would be helpful, but (and that's a big but) developers usually prefer to have a undistorted view on how the community wants to play the game. If klei (or any other development studio) pranced along and said "oh, we dont want you to use pipes as heat exchangers, we will fix this bug immediately", they would have missed out on the communities need to have some kind of background mass to exchange/stabilize heat between tiles.

It is a fine line between giving feedback to early and risking to miss out on innovations, requests, revisions that the community (and internal tests) provide or giving feedback too late and angering certain members who are eagerly waiting for their requests to be heard.

And it is also worth noting that maybe klei themselves still need to make their minds up in which direction they want to go. Maybe not every employee of klei is qualified to give representative feedback of their views and maybe those who are have better things to do than to twitter on their working time. Things (like coding) that benefit all of us and not "just" the bug reporters.

 

In most cases the perfect (and easiest) moment for feedback is simply the changelog of a refined change that the developers release as a little surprise. Many people will be happy about something new that they didnt see coming, some will be happy that they finally got what they wished for and some might at least have certainty that their desired playstyle was not intended (at least for the moment).

So in this particular case, some (not many and by far not all) people here on the board are feeling that the feedback is arriving too late (or even never). But there is still a big change coming and it was said on the stream that it contained changes that have been forked 6 months ago (!). I am not saying this is the answer to everyones wishes. But it will certainly be something to make alot of people happy. Let klei work their magic and i cant imagine them not being eager to clean up the rest of the bugs in the aftermath.

 

 

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JoeW    25,309

Ok - so we met for about an hour and a half today. 

First I wanted to clarify some things. As some of you have pointed out, we tend to communicate by doing more than by saying. This is for multiple reasons but at the heart of it, it's a resource issue. Responding to something means a lot more than I think a lot of you may realize. When an issue is reported it takes time to read and investigate. If the issue can be reproduced it may have multiple components responsible for the issue being fixed and even then there are knock on effects of cascading issues that result from those changes. 

All these things come into play when thinking about whether a bug should be fixed or prioritized for a different time. While often times a person who reports an issue may think the bug is going to get fixed asap, we generally approach it by prioritizing bugs based on the nature of the issue, how it impacts the community and what resources we have to address it. That's all a normal part of our every day, but communicating this stuff takes a lot of extra time. We agree that we can do better, so we are going to adjust, but we have to find a good balance there. 

In addition to this as was mentioned earlier in the thread, we do not like to participate directly in conversations because it changes the direction of the conversation. We don't generally take feedback as exactly what is written, but we take the conversation and try to dissect it and figure out where it lines up with what we are trying to achieve. You may have an absolutely wonderful idea, but we disagree with it's execution. Or a horrible idea with a nugget of brilliance. We need those conversations to decipher these things, but when we're involved it very often becomes definitive and creative conversation does not take place.

I want to be clear here. And I am not mincing words because I think it's important. This has been our approach for the last 7 years and it has worked very well for us. BUT - there have certainly been times in the past where the community has needed to remind us that we need to be a bit more visible and I definitely think there is room for us to be more communicative here. 

The team is going to pop in more often and let you know more that we're around. They read these forums every single day and I can tell you personally that we very much care and appreciate your feedback. We do not have the resources to respond to everything, or even a lot of posts, but the ONI team is going to be working toward making sure you all know that we're here and we are taking all your suggestion, feedback and bug reports into consideration. 

Thanks everybody. 

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pacovf    486

I would like to say that I was not personally bothered by your dev style. I have followed ONI since the Thermal upgrade, and have followed some of your other games before that. It can be a bit frustrating sometimes to have no idea what is happening on your side, but without fail, when you drop new content, it's clear that you care about the feedback you get in the forums.

I wanted to voice my positive opinion here, since by their nature forums tend to be dominated by negative voices (e.g. people complaining that diseases were changed, when a rework of the system had been requested many times) . Keep rocking and so on. Hopefully that 1.5h meeting wasn't too exhausting.

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Junksteel    635

Well, look at that... it turned out @R9XM4 didn't leave in vain and just shaked things up. What a plot twist!

Good job Klei, delivering peace and I just needed Ice Machine. You guys are awesome!

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Thanks to @JoeW I know I have responsibility to clarify some things.

1.

Of course, I feel angry about the bug tracker. There are so many bugs, or I personally think they are bugs, have not been acknowledge. With the time passing, many players take these irrationalities for granted. 

I have my own player circle. When a newcomer laugh at me because I refuse to build an infinite turbine in my base, can you understand my feeling? What about two newbies? Three newbies? Every week? Lasting a whole year?

I posted them not for giving these newbies a chance to laugh at me. I regret to post what I have posted, and I won't post what I haven't posted. If my old friends don't encourage me, I already abandoned this game.

2.

 I hate the forum. When I said, "you guys evict every dissident", you don't feel shamed, but are proud of it. I'm glad for some people use their reactions to support my view, but also disappointed.

I've saw so many newcomer came with hope, then lost their hope. I fear to show my true feeling. I hate the advanced high overtemperature metal, I hate the new ice machine (sorry to @Junksteel). I feel they are laughing at my struggling to acquire high temperature or keep my base cool. I try to accept these change, but what make me unbearable is I can't express my dissatisfaction.

OK, I will evict myself, but I shall have rights to take away all my topics with me. The forum don't deserve them. I will return to my circle.

3.

Players will choose the game they like, and game will also choose players. A  game refused to fix bug will choose the players who like dancing with bugs. 

More than one year ago, when I suffered from the drop cooling, as known as super borg, these senior players tried to persuade we junior players that the drop cooling would never be fixed.

"The drop cooling is designed to reduce calculation", or "to balance heat generation", or whatever else. Anyway, they tried to claim "it's a feature, a basic feature, an everlasting feature."

Many of my friends chose to leave, because these senior players‘ sermon.

Now, we are here. The fix of drop cooling doesn't destory the game. But these players who lost hope to this game will never come back. 

last week, a new member came. He was angry about the energy and temperature nonconservation.

"It is designed to reduce calculation, or to balance heat generation, or whatever else. Anyway, it's a feature"

What a familiar scene. If someone choose to leave, it will be more similar. OK, it's my turn.

4.

These topics I summarized are outdated, and contains many errors. For myself, I'd prefer to read wiki or database in the game, or just quick talk with my friends. I didn't read these topics for a long time. If you are satisfied with these old and wrong knowledge, lost desire to acquire new knowledge, then it should be cut out. 

We should find a more smart way should be used to reveal these knowledge and update them. For example, why not add the average output into the geyser subscreen?

1.png.c949cc97c0bd6096ed57ce4e356a73a2.png

Open the code editor, find Geyser.GetDescriptors()

Emmm, It's a generic methods and Harmony don’t support generic methods. OK, as a self-taught programming amateur, I give up.

 

 

Finally, I never expected that my leaving could draw official's attention. Thanks to Klei for designing such a great game. If I can bring some changes, it will be good. 

BTW, try to jump out of the forum, you could find many well-known and useful exploits/tricks but rarely or never appears in the forum.

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ChickenMadness    193
On 02/04/2019 at 2:02 AM, KittenIsAGeek said:

I personally haven't felt a disconnect.  For the most part, every time I've taken the time to submit a bug report, I've had feedback -- either directly (in the case of the 'black screen after fresh Linux install' issue) or indirectly (in the case of the recent change to the skill display screen.

 

Same I've complained about things on the forum (mostly gameplay balance) and they've been fixed in the next update lol.

I think bugs are at the bottom of their priority list. Those are something you'd come to once the entire game is finished and you're done making huge changes to the game. It's a waste of time to fix minor bugs that are likely to resurface again during big gameplay updates.

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goboking    1,524
42 minutes ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

I have my own player circle. When a newcomer laugh at me because I refuse to build an infinite turbine in my base, can you understand my feeling? What about two newbies? Three newbies? Every week? Lasting a whole year?

I posted them not for giving these newbies a chance to laugh at me. I regret to post what I have posted, and I won't post what I haven't posted. If my old friends don't encourage me, I already abandoned this game.

If I may be so bold, if your friends are laughing at you for not exploiting what you consider to be a bug, then perhaps it's time to find new friends.

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Junksteel    635

@FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX Hey man, no worries. You're free to hate the new Ice Machine as I don't love the new Skill system. The difference being you probably have much better arguments to sustain your lack of love for a specific issue than me. Throw those arguments around and people will debate them passionately. The more important is the contribution you do in the community, the more capacitated players you'll attract to dispute views about the game, its mechanics and development. It's a way of honoring your thoughts, not the opposite. Why people don't argue with me frequently? Because my ideas are limited, poorly conceived and don't worth the time of people that master the game's mechanic in its deep. And when cornered, I just give up lol. I wish my mind was sharp enough like yours to stand up to the best.

I never expected the commotion that happened when you left. It proved you were very appreciated in the community and your work respected by all... even opponents in debate. We will respect your decision whatever it may be, but if you reconsider your departure everyone will be happy I guess. As you can see, you shaked things up and I believe the community in general will be more careful with the heat of debates after that. Even the dev team changed radically since. We can see many posts from them and more detailed interactions now, which is good in general for every single user of the forum. You did a lot even when you left, hope to see much more if you come back. Respect!

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blash365    590
10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

When a newcomer laugh at me because I refuse

This is called standing up for yourself and your views/believes. It's a normal process of growing up, you will learn to deal with it over time. Furthermore it has nothing to do with klei, oni, this forum, or anything apart from you, what you consider important and your choice of friends.

10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

 "you guys evict every dissident"

Please google the meaning of these words, before you use them.

10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

I shall have rights to take away all my topics with me.

Honestly, you dont. When it comes to your own post, you surely are free to remove them. But with your topics you also removed every followup post from any other user who posted their original findings on the issue.

We have some kind of turf-rule here. If you are good and you are the first to post on the issue, others will toss around your link, so that you get the credit and replies for it. You surely were happy with this system while it was active, because it gave you (deserved) acknowledgement.

But you also have some kind of responsibility for your topics. Since you get the credit for them, many others might actually be discouraged to post duplicates thus making you a monopolist on the issue. If you now delete your posts, you will create a vacuum, which might not have existed, if you had not posted in the first place.

The least you can do is to refrain from deleting entire topics but to delete your posts instead. If your post is the first post of a topic, you simply edit it to zero content.

This way you will preserve the contents of other users while still flushing your own contents out of the conversation (apart from the thread titles and commented entries).

10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

More than one year ago, when I suffered from the drop cooling, as known as super borg, these senior players tried to persuade we junior players that the drop cooling would never be fixed.

I share your experience on this issue. But what did it teach us? Klei listens to player feedback and actually fixes the issues in due time. After the fix, everybody is happy.

For some reason you expect a different outcome this time. Inconsistent, if you ask me.

10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

What a familiar scene. If someone choose to leave, it will be more similar. OK, it's my turn.

You are trying to make some kind of martyr of yourself, but first of all, it takes more to leave an online game forum to become a martyr for the good cause, and second the devs might have had different reason to fix the bugs back then than your friends leaving the forum. Just some food for thought.

10 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

We should find a more smart way should be used to reveal these knowledge and update them.

Yes, you are 100% correct. Still this feature is already part of the game, you are just complaining about quality and coverage. I am inclined to make a leap of faith here: klei will work on this after ONI 1.0 is functional completed (as would any reasonable developer).

 

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DreamApart    119
11 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

Players will choose the game they like, and game will also choose players. A  game refused to fix bug will choose the players who like dancing with bugs. 

More than one year ago, when I suffered from the drop cooling, as known as super borg, these senior players tried to persuade we junior players that the drop cooling would never be fixed.

"The drop cooling is designed to reduce calculation", or "to balance heat generation", or whatever else. Anyway, they tried to claim "it's a feature, a basic feature, an everlasting feature."

Yes, and this mechanism works so subtly, that no many people realized it.

 

20 minutes ago, blash365 said:

This is called standing up for yourself and your views/believes. It's a normal process of growing up, you will learn to deal with it over time. Furthermore it has nothing to do with klei, oni, this forum, or anything apart from you, what you consider important and your choice of friends.

Yes, ..

... or no.

Yes, those words look childish. Deleting a thread is childish too. It's so childish that everyone could understand what it mean, because everyone is childish deep down the heart.

Or maybe not, he did much before he earned himself a chance to have everybody listen to his childish words.

We only hate what we once loved. And maybe everyone is childish for what he loves.

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pacovf    486

This thread just keeps getting more and more surreal.

I hope anyone whose feelings were hurt can work through them and reach a satisfying conclusion.

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Oozinator    2,345
1 hour ago, blash365 said:

It's a normal process of growing up, you will learn to deal with it over time.

I don't understand why suggesting his age is relevant?

16 minutes ago, pacovf said:

This thread just keeps getting more and more surreal.

So far ppl stay friendly, i like such stuff, but some are crossing the border for me..
IQ has nothing to do, with empathy, sad thing.
 

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mathmanican    2,289
11 hours ago, goboking said:

If I may be so bold, if your friends are laughing at you for not exploiting what you consider to be a bug, then perhaps it's time to find new friends.

Someone is hurting, and your suggestion is to dump friends? This truly makes me sad (and even more so all the likes attached). His friends aren't the ones laughing at him. The forum is. So he's dumping the forum. He's not dumb. Did you miss this? Read his post again.

Why would you ever tell someone to dump their real life friends when you have no clue what's going on?

12 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

Alpha up, be hurtful and lack compassion. Most important, never apologize. Good lessons to learn on the ONI forum.

@nakomaru, I think you hit this on the head. Obviously sarcastic and honest at the same time. Well put.

54 minutes ago, blash365 said:

We have some kind of turf-rule here. If you are good and you are the first to post on the issue, others will toss around your link, so that you get the credit and replies for it. You surely were happy with this system while it was active, because it gave you (deserved) acknowledgement.

But you also have some kind of responsibility for your topics. Since you get the credit for them, many others might actually be discouraged to post duplicates thus making you a monopolist on the issue. If you now delete your posts, you will create a vacuum, which might not have existed, if you had not posted in the first place.

I completely agree that these could be the "turf" rules, at least as I understood them and played by them. However, @JoeW confirmed that those are not the turf rules. Months of work are now deleted and gone, with no chance to resurrect them.  Collecting links to illustrate how elaborate and intricate the bugs are have been deleted. Oh well, the devs can see them so not too much harm done. I suspect this thread might disappear in the next day...

16 minutes ago, pacovf said:

This thread just keeps getting more and more surreal.

I hope anyone whose feelings were hurt can work through them and reach a satisfying conclusion.

Agreed.  Surreal is a great term to describe this thread. My feelings are all over the place. For now, I'm taking a break. I hope the gauntlet gets demolished. Marketing and discovery are two completely different things. I hope my marketing helped draw attention. I guess I won't find the last two stones (or drip cooling was one of them that already got destroyed - so only one is left). 

If anything, this forum has helped me better understand human interactions. It has been amazing to see and discover multiple personalities emerge over the last year. Each person's tolerance for sarcasm, ability to distinguish between literal or figurative, etc., is different.  This forum has helped me become more aware of how statements can incite conflict in my real life workplace (we have lots of conflict on this forum). It's been eye opening, and I appreciate it. The back and forth has been wonderful.

The fact that somehow some of us can equate serial killers to thread deleters (hyperbole for sure) is surreal, and hurtful. I've got to step away. My emotions are all over the place. This place has been a great place to come and share ideas. I love all the experience shared in the forms.  I love discussing science with a ton of geeks (if you disagree, then own up to it - we're a bunch of geeks :) ). It's one of the best forums I've ever participated in.  But I've got to go, at least for a while - maybe permanently.

@Oozinator, I'll probably keep lurking in the background to get a good laugh from your meme's.  They always brighten my day.  Sometimes though your sarcasm is completely missed by others, and people think you are being serious. I'm sure you see that too. It's been fun. Keep it up "Sir Memealot". Try building  a rocket someday. Maybe once. With Debug. At least then you can hate it knowing all the details. :) 

@FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX, thanks for all your discoveries.  They were amazing, and thank you tons for sharing them. If I was ever at fault for making you feel ridiculed, I apologize.  That was never my intention.  The "laugh" icon unfortunately does not distinguish between "laughing at someone" and "laughing at yourself". Leaves a huge window for personal interpretation that cannot be discerned in a forum. 

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Gurgel    1,134
12 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

Thanks to @JoeW I know I have responsibility to clarify some things.

In my book, you gave everybody here a big FU gesture when you left. I think the problem is mostly, possibly completely on your side and I feel zero compassion for you. I also fail to see the validity of your complaints. This is _game_, and moreover a game in early access. It is changing and it is not _you_ that dictates the direction. Also, a gaming forum is no place for dramatic gestures. Doing them just means you are full of yourself.

23 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Someone is hurting, and your suggestion is to dump friends?

From what I can see, he did it mostly to himself. 

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blash365    590
1 hour ago, Oozinator said:

I don't understand why suggesting his age is relevant?

I never mentioned age. This is purely your own (mis)interpretation.

Age does not always correspond with maturity, you know.

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goboking    1,524
41 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Someone is hurting, and your suggestion is to dump friends?

If those friends are a genuine source of consternation?  Yes, absolutely.  If someone is causing you emotional distress then they're not much of a friend, are they?

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blash365    590
48 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

I completely agree that these could be the "turf" rules, at least as I understood them and played by them. However, @JoeW confirmed that those are not the turf rules. Months of work are now deleted and gone, with no chance to resurrect them.

JoeW said that it would be a crap-move to recreate the deleted posts. And he is correct.

However it is also a crap-move to delete hundreds of (follow-up) posts just out of spite.

 

The turf-rules are a gentlemennerds-agreement and i tried to remind everybody of that. Maybe the right person will reconsider their actions to a certain degree.

 

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Oozinator    2,345
Just now, blash365 said:

I never mentioned age. This is purely your own (mis)interpretation.

Age does not always correspond with maturity, you know.

Sry english is not my native language and i am not able to see a difference between it,

in the way you presented it, but i am glad you can :)
hugs.jpg.ab879d06aa07ccbe7b1c859fe533658c.jpg

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blash365    590
1 minute ago, Oozinator said:

Sry english is not my native language and i am not able to see a difference between it,

in the way you presented it, but i am glad you can :)
hugs.jpg.ab879d06aa07ccbe7b1c859fe533658c.jpg

QED.

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Angpaur    226
13 hours ago, FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX said:

When a newcomer laugh at me because I refuse to build an infinite turbine in my base, can you understand my feeling? What about two newbies? Three newbies? Every week? Lasting a whole year?

I posted them not for giving these newbies a chance to laugh at me.

Looks like you need to grow a bigger ego. If big enough it will not shrink from other people laughs.

Besides why even care that some people from internet are laughing, who you don't even know personally?

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Junksteel    635

My suggestion is to lock this thread. We're about to lose other people here and I can't see nothing positive coming out of it at this point. I guess the guy already has much material to think about.

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