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Grimgaw

ONI Biology thread deleted?

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JoeW    23,661

I am not going to unhide their posts - that would be pretty crappy. They are choosing not to delete the account, so I prefer to keep it that way. 

But apparently there is a bit of a disconnect here that I am going to try to clear up

6 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

I think you hit it on the head here. 

I personally gave up on reporting any bugs after I realized that devs don't even bother acknowledging the reports. It's a shame that devs are taciturn.

The way we look at bug reports is that they are there so that we may we sift through them and fix them as appropriate based on priority and what were working on. If they are there, you know we know about them. But it's not meant to be a channel of communication. 

All that being said, it seems like there is a disconnect here that we need to address. 

We're going to meet up tomorrow and figure some stuff out. Stay tuned. 

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mathmanican    1,234
6 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We're going to meet up tomorrow and figure some stuff out. Stay tuned. 

Thanks a ton for the reply.

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KittenIsAGeek    983
2 minutes ago, JoeW said:

I am not going to unhide their posts - that would be pretty crappy. They are choosing not to delete the account, so I prefer to keep it that way. 

But apparently there is a bit of a disconnect here that I am going to try to clear up

The way we look at bug reports is that they are there so that we may we sift through them and fix them as appropriate based on priority and what were working on. If they are there, you know we know about them. But it's not meant to be a channel of communication. 

All that being said, it seems like there is a disconnect here that we need to address. 

We're going to meet up tomorrow and figure some stuff out. Stay tuned. 

I personally haven't felt a disconnect.  For the most part, every time I've taken the time to submit a bug report, I've had feedback -- either directly (in the case of the 'black screen after fresh Linux install' issue) or indirectly (in the case of the recent change to the skill display screen.

However, I have noticed that when there's a bug (or feature!) that the dev's don't plan on addressing in the near future, there isn't any real feedback.  For example, I distinctly remember several months where many threads on the General forum were discussing whether the "borg cube" exploit was intentional or not, as bug reports weren't getting any sort of feedback.

For what its worth, I've really enjoyed being allowed to participate by playing the game during its development process.  

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nonoxyl    191
7 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

I personally gave up on reporting any bugs after I realized that devs don't even bother acknowledging the reports. It's a shame that devs are taciturn.

Ye hath prodded the beast and it awakens. Doom! Doom! The heavens burn...

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M.C.    133
2 hours ago, nakomaru said:

The devs are one thing, but his last comment should tell you the other. Paraphrasing, it's no wonder people leave when you exile dissidents.

Amen to that.

This kind of nonsense is happening because the forum owners -- that is, Klei employees -- either don't have resources to police the forums appropriately (best case scenario) or don't consider it a problem in the first place (worst case scenario). And this is the result. Like I said... I am not surprised at all.

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PhailRaptor    845
2 hours ago, JoeW said:
8 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

I think you hit it on the head here. 

I personally gave up on reporting any bugs after I realized that devs don't even bother acknowledging the reports. It's a shame that devs are taciturn.

The way we look at bug reports is that they are there so that we may we sift through them and fix them as appropriate based on priority and what were working on. If they are there, you know we know about them. But it's not meant to be a channel of communication. 

All that being said, it seems like there is a disconnect here that we need to address. 

We're going to meet up tomorrow and figure some stuff out. Stay tuned. 

I think a good step in the right direction would be to actually change the status of the some of the mountain of "Pending" reports to "Known Issue" instead of just leaving everyone in the dark about whether they've even been viewed or not for reproduction.

Also, this policy of near-silence you guys have for fear of "shaping discussion" is a little baffling to me.  It's very difficult to have a discussion when one of the critical parties involved barely ever utters a word.

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M.C.    133
3 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Also, this policy of near-silence you guys have for fear of "shaping discussion" is a little baffling to me.  It's very difficult to have a discussion when one of the critical parties involved barely ever utters a word.

If I were to hazard I guess, I would say they are not interested in a discussion. It's feedback they're after. Not a two-way conversation.

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PhailRaptor    845
Just now, M.C. said:

If I were to hazard I guess, I would say they are not interested in a discussion. It's feedback they're after. Not a two-way conversation.

Which means you're depending entirely on the players to guide their own discussion in the direction you want or need it to go for feedback, and pray they actually do.  It's like DMing for a D&D campaign, and hoping the Gnome Bard doesn't try to seduce the Innkeeper for no reason at all.  Sometimes you really need targeted feedback about a feature or mechanic.

And having discussions about the mechanics and features of your game with the players is kind of an important thing, in terms of general balance.  You might notice that there's a pretty large dislike of the implementation of the Rocket system.  Everyone wants there to be a Rocket system, but nobody likes the current one.  So why not host a discussion thread about the Rocket system, specifically?  This would allow the Devs to see what people do and don't like about Rockets, what is and isn't working, and what things the crowd-think of the community may have observed to be nonsensical that the Devs simply hadn't considered.

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M.C.    133
15 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

And having discussions about the mechanics and features of your game with the players is kind of an important thing, in terms of general balance.  You might notice that there's a pretty large dislike of the implementation of the Rocket system.  Everyone wants there to be a Rocket system, but nobody likes the current one.  So why not host a discussion thread about the Rocket system, specifically?  This would allow the Devs to see what people do and don't like about Rockets, what is and isn't working, and what things the crowd-think of the community may have observed to be nonsensical that the Devs simply hadn't considered.

Not really. The number of forum members is a small fraction of the playerbase, and the number of people who actually express their dislike of a feature is a small fraction of forum membership. No matter how much you dislike rocketry in ONI, you can't truthfully claim that "there's a pretty large dislike". Same with the words "everyone" and "nobody". You simply don't -- can't -- know.

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CodexDraco    14

Anyway, if anyone is still interested in the original topic, a forum user made this amazing tool: https://oni-db.com/

Sorry, I don't remember who made this, it was linked in the forums a while ago. It contains all critter data as well as a lot of useful info.

 

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Oozinator    2,149

From my point of view, it makes no sense to "harden" this discussion, without R4 / fixbugfix interaction.
He got much honor from forum users and now would be the right time for him, to be constructive and join the thing.

I was always wondering about the "soft" interaction/moderation in their forums, by Klei members.
But now after some time, it makes sense for me.
When they would give a statement about every "negative" meaning/post, it would only result in more work, with bigger chances of negative impact - bigger wave - tsunami and then they would be forced to change their style, to handle the situation.

Theoretically should content creators (threads) have the right to hide/delete content and it has to be respected, whatever reasons the creator had, to do so.

2372d216188b842846bf289ae24e503cf35bc728

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fancyrat    1

Most of the kinds of exploits being discussed shouldn't be a priority for a sandbox game two months from release. They're egregious, but the setups are specific enough that they wouldn't show up by accident (except for that tile doubling).  If it doesn't change someone's initial impression it's just not as important as any one of a million things that would. Its also a bad idea to say virtually anything to your audience when a big release is coming up. People are antsy and you can't risk a PR problem.

Whatever happened, the viking funeral is fair enough. Our pal's high quality posting will live on in spirit.

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12 hours ago, JoeW said:

I am not going to unhide their posts - that would be pretty crappy. They are choosing not to delete the account, so I prefer to keep it that way. 

But apparently there is a bit of a disconnect here that I am going to try to clear up

The way we look at bug reports is that they are there so that we may we sift through them and fix them as appropriate based on priority and what were working on. If they are there, you know we know about them. But it's not meant to be a channel of communication. 

All that being said, it seems like there is a disconnect here that we need to address. 

We're going to meet up tomorrow and figure some stuff out. Stay tuned. 

It has to be done better. For instance, the exact same topic that got hidden was asked in the past several times to be pinned. That's right, it was actually a very important thread which elevated past your run off the mill topics. There are/were quite a few members actually around here who really put in a lot of effort for the game and who, justifyingly so, did not felt that it was appreciated or listened to. Whether he overreacted or not, did maybe infact did something wrong or not, a member like that dropping out is partly your's to (Klei's) blame as well. It is a writing on the wall.

In general, ONI is one of the better developers which does involve a large community into the development. However, the communication is still lacking, and when you involve a large community, you need to be doing more communication.

 

Usually communication is on the required level around the release of the preview branch. Example: A few branches ago there were severe FPS problems in the preview branches, and there was a lot of talk from us that we can just disable the logging tools. This issue was going on for a very long time, until ipsquiggle send me a PM to specify what we were disabling as you understandably needed the crash logs. Turned out the vast majority of the FPS issues came from the Unity engine logging tools and had nothing to do with the crash logs, and the update after that those unity logging tools were disabled by standard. You should have seen how people were happy about that. That issue, born from a simple misunderstanding and infact due lack of communication, did cost you a lot of valuable members testing out the preview branches before the issue finally got resolved.

 

Between the release of the live branch and the next preview branch, it is literally dead silent on your (and with your I mean Klei's) side, aside the occasional "please read the rules, don't get annoyed at one another, yadi yada yada post". With that, I don't mean reacting to each and every complaint individually. But for instance there literally dozen and literally hundreds of bug reports that complained about the steam turbine (before the revision) and there was never a single public acknowledgement from the dev side. It's a shame that is understood by you lot as "oh they don't understand we have other priorities for now than the steam turbine" because frankly we do, we just don't understand there is no "we get the issue, we'll work on it after we did the stuff higher up the priority list" acknowledgement. A weekly post quickly summarizing the biggest complaints/bug reports and a promise they will be fixed further down the road is more than enough as communication.

 

So please, do adress this disconnect. It has been lingering around far too long, and please do a bit more for members like R9MX4. Members like him did a lot for the community here, and as a moderator/article writer on F1technical.net myself, such members mostly don't do it for recognition, they do it to help out. The most dissapointing thing a person can do is reject someone's extended helping hand.

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Gurgel    1,001
9 hours ago, M.C. said:

Not really. The number of forum members is a small fraction of the playerbase, and the number of people who actually express their dislike of a feature is a small fraction of forum membership. No matter how much you dislike rocketry in ONI, you can't truthfully claim that "there's a pretty large dislike". Same with the words "everyone" and "nobody". You simply don't -- can't -- know.

Very true. The mere effort to get here and post something already creates a massive filter bubble. I have no idea what ONI player numbers are (hope they are good), but there cannot be more than 1% of the players here. Also, I completely understand the devs not getting involved in discussions. On the Internet, if you actually understand something or, gasp!, are an expert in something, you have a weaker position than all the insistent [deleted] that know nothing but are unaware of that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect). 

For example, I am an expert in IT security. A real one. With engineering PhD in the subject and 20 years hands-on experience on all levels and all. I have some real understanding and knowledge. But I have mostly stopped discussing it on the Internet, because the number of people absolutely insisting on stupid_thing_a, stupid_thing_b and stupid_thing_c and that are completely unable to understand a rational argument or even that this is a difficult topic is staggering. 

My guess would be that the fine folk at Klei have run into the same thing and hence prefer to stay out of it and just observe. Personally, I am still learning (as George Charlin put it) the "Art of not giving a ****." and hence sometimes are willing to discuss things I actually have a clue about. This mostly does not end well, several examples here in the forums and a lot more on slashdot.

Never discuss anything with idiots. They pull you down to their level and then beat you with experience. The primary thing they do not get is what a "fact" is. They think _everything_ is up to opinions and if they push harder they win and reality changes to make what they think true. That does not work of course, but they have the perception they are successful with that approach because the side with a clue eventually realize arguing with these people is futile and stops doing so. Might also be, for example, also why the climate experts have been so timid for a long time, when the prediction of the looming catastrophe has been scientifically solid for > 30 years and they were just discussing "very bad" vs. "catastrophic".

5 hours ago, CodexDraco said:

Anyway, if anyone is still interested in the original topic, a forum user made this amazing tool: https://oni-db.com/

Sorry, I don't remember who made this, it was linked in the forums a while ago. It contains all critter data as well as a lot of useful info.

Nice! Did not know about that one.

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5 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Never discuss anything with idiots. 

But R9XM4 was not an idiot. He was able to do read the code, he made brilliant tables (not just the critter ones!), he made a lot of bug reports which did make sense. I agree 100% that you as a developer should not be dragged down into discussions which are highly subjective and against people who do not (want to) understand a thing you are saying. However, if you also ignore the ones who aren't idiots and actually have the knowledge and experience, then you have a problem.

And please do not start a discussion about climate. I know it's meant as an example, but that's going to lead to people disagreeing and this topic will loose all focus. I emplore to remove that and get a better example.

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Junksteel    450

Sad for the guy that left. Seems like he was a gem for the community that will be missed.

I think ONI forum is a pretty healthy place compared to any gaming forum I've ever been part of. It's a miracle that we don't even notice moderation around. Rants against the management of the community aren't a thing at all.

As far as communication goes, I'd like to know what would be the parameter for a hypothetical better job in that regard. Which game studio develop amazing games while do a great job handling communication to a big pool of players? I am trying to think of a single one and none comes to my mind.

Seems like people need to know what is really desirable for the community, considering that true devs of the game can't spend much of their working hours responding to players. I seconded what Gurgel just said on the matter. Devs can't be around the same way most active players are. I know it doesn't meet some of the expectations as most passionate players are contributing for free, dedicating huge amount of their time to improve the game. In the other hand, "the professionals" don't even answer. But hey, were they supposed to?

The alternative would be hiring a team of community managers that actually don't develop the game but constantly replies to the community. The gap between developers and players still remain in that case but filled with professional PR posts, damage control, and artificial sense of dialogue. I rather prefer silence than borderline lies only to calm down the masses.

Klei didn't promise to rework the steam turbine, it was just delivered done. IMHO this is amazing and proves how connected they are to the feedback provided here.

It could be much more frustrating to read a professional being paid to daily reply "will be fixed soon", even when it's not true that dev team is aware of one specific issue. Not rarely, those teams don't even share the same workplace.

Personally, I think not having those things around is great and sometimes it will come at the expense of a great community member that feel that his/her work isn't being properly valued. This community is great and its edgy lords are part of it. I really like this place. Cheers!

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Gurgel    1,001
26 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

But R9XM4 was not an idiot. He was able to do read the code, he made brilliant tables (not just the critter ones!), he made a lot of bug reports which did make sense. I agree 100% that you as a developer should not be dragged down into discussions which are highly subjective and against people who do not (want to) understand a thing you are saying. However, if you also ignore the ones who aren't idiots and actually have the knowledge and experience, then you have a problem.

I will not get into a discussion of what R9XM4 was or was not. I don't have the patience to research the issue. However I do know that perceptions can be deceiving and, as an expert in some other fields, I have run into apparently smart people arguing for utterly dumb things time and again and being insistent when eventually ignored. I also hate professional (and amateur) victims. Whatever they contribute is not worth all the negativity and destructiveness they bring in.

26 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

And please do not start a discussion about climate. I know it's meant as an example, but that's going to lead to people disagreeing and this topic will loose all focus. I emplore to remove that and get a better example.

This is the perfect example and that is the reason I use it. Weaker examples include anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, all kind of religious fanatics, Trump fans, etc.. But they are too easy to classify as _those_ people and discount. With climate change you still have a lot of people in the mainstream that do not get it, a lot of greed and arrogance on the side of the deniers, while the science is absolutely solid. And that makes it an excellent example for the issue.

Oh, and I am not starting a discussion about it. Anybody scientifically educated and rational will see zero room for discussion as to yes/no. Anybody else is an example of the problem. Yes, that is not "friendly", or "inclusive".  

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1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

I will not get into a discussion of what R9XM4 was or was not. I don't have the patience to research the issue. However I do know that perceptions can be deceiving and, as an expert in some other fields, I have run into apparently smart people arguing for utterly dumb things time and again and being insistent when eventually ignored. I hate professional (and amateur) victims. Whatever they contribute is not worth all the negativity and destructiveness they bring in.

This is the perfect example and that is the reason I use it. Weaker examples include anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, all kind of religious fanatics, Trump fans, etc.. But they are too easy to classify as _those_ people and discount. With climate change you still have a lot of people in the mainstream that do not get it, a lot of greed and arrogance on the side of the deniers, while the science is absolutely solid. And that makes it an excellent example for the issue.

And so the example becomes the main reason for the discussion despite me trying to avoid that actively... Forgive me for not going into that. Not the place, note the time, not the correct forum. I'm sure you can agree with that, so lets move away from that distraction.

But you are making too much conjecture about R9XM4. I don't know what happened exactly in the days or weeks before he decided to quit, apparently there was a spat out, but this was a person which spend the past year helping others out. This was not a revolting, agorant, destructive or negative person. That much I can assure you. The guy even once made a small mod for me (about the steam turbine), minutes after I put out a request! I can understand you don't want to put in the time to research that, and I don't think it's doable either way with his posts hidden, but then please accept when I say: this is not your run off the mill trouble maker. This was an intelligent person, this was a contributing person, this was a rational and friendly person. For him to implode like that is not something that can be ignored. Even JoeW accepts the gravity of this.

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Gurgel    1,001
10 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

This was not a revolting, agorant, destructive or negative person. 

Well, you said "revolting", and "arrogant", I did not. I only pointed out that in general somebody that contributes a lot does not need to be an asset. It is more complicated than this. It happens pretty often that such people are not an asset overall and hence I reserve judgment on what R9XM4 is or is not, because I only know that he posted a lot. I do know that he left in a huff and decidedly _was_ destructive when he left. A wanton act of destruction that hits people entirely blameless on top of that does not deserve respect IMO.

10 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

And so the example becomes the main reason for the discussion despite me trying to avoid that actively... Forgive me for not going into that. Not the place, note the time, not the correct forum. I'm sure you can agree with that, so lets move away from that distraction.

It was an example. It does not need discussion.

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18 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Well, you said "revolting", and "arrogant", I did not. I only pointed out that in general somebody that contributes a lot does not need to be an asset. It is more complicated than this. It happens pretty often that such people are not an asset and hence I reserve judgment on what R9XM4 is or is not, because I only know that he posted a lot. I do know that he left in a huff and decidedly _was_ destructive when he left. A wanton act of destruction that hits people entirely blameless on top of that does not deserve respect IMO.

It neither deserve to be ignored either. For him to be all of a sudden destructive, must mean there was something brewing in him for a long time. Miscontent can linger for a long while before getting to the surface. And I do agree that people like him have been ignored too much. When used, they are valuable assets for the community and they should a sherished. He was a valuable part of this community, I think nobody who knew him would ever deny that. I'm not justifying whatever he said when he imploded, but this is a case where lessons should be taken to avoid similar things happen in the future.

Let me give a specific counter example: I mentioned above I am a moderator on F1technical. We are basically aerodynamics (and formula one) enthousiasts, so we have to deal ourselves in the reality of rationalism because aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, belong to the fields of physics and mathematics. Just like here, just like everywhere else, we also have people who just like to talk out of their backsides. We also have our normal members who just want to be part of discussions, and we also have people similar like R9XM4, who wanted to spread correct and good information (yes, they have MsC's and PhD's). With the exception we didn't ignore those people. We hold close contact with those people, we let them in all their own freedom write articles for website, we even gave them a nice little color for their username to distinct them from the rest, because they frankly deserved that. We gave those people more involvement, the means to express them and to make a difference. They don't require anything in return for their help, other than having the means for helping out.

If you threat people who are helpful, rational and normally friendly the same as people who talk out of their backsides, then you do run the risk of the good guy getting frustrated. If I had one recommendation to any community, in whatever sociological, economic,... context, it's not to ignore the people who stand out.

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SakuraKoi    521
57 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

but there cannot be more than 1% of the players here

from the statistic of my old forum:

5% read the forums

1% post in it

The post one I could confirm with my own eyes since I could just sort users by post count, can't recall though if it included those which post even just once or only more. I think like half did post more than once if they post, or was it a third?

there does not really appear to be a major difference anywhere and very well aligns with my behavior, I have many forums I could read, yet mostly I read wikis and those which I read I do not necessarily visit frequently or post even just (more than) once. ONI must be quite small if the few faces one see here are more than a percent or two of active players, we'd be like a few thousand at best (not CCU at one point in time but rather a month or few, and it's already 3300 right now at a bad time where EU is not quite off from work/school and NA not quite awake, if not sleeping soundly)

 

And regarding "I/This deserves a sticky", no, just no, heavens no. If we go by this, we'd have the first page full of guides which are better off on Steam or gamepedia, forums are a place for discussion, to discern information, not to just state it. If anything a thread listing useful threads would be suitable as sticky (reminds me how I made one too for a guide section, although updating it was a PITA especially since I meant to thread, er, treat, every guide the same...).

Games are not for glory and as much as helping is praiseworthy, this utterly destructive behavior just tells how it would have been quite possible for one to grow arrogant indeed, if one not already was. Competence does not mean benevolence and it should be quite obvious how we judge people, when they are at their worst, and not at their best. Why should one "respect" a war hero turned serial killer? The scale here is obviously smaller but the fruit is the same and rotten, people change...

and what made this "hero" change appears to be pretty petty to say the least, even if one does not know what happens, that they used the worst kind of retaliation is obvious and might as well be counted as betrayal to anyone who used that feature that can be found on the bottom right of each post.

Personally I am also quite against any lip service, my old forum sure had plenty of Community Managers but from what I recall now... it was mostly meaningless (Sure, Cain was gifted in making trolls feel ultra terrible but it is not like we got many here before he abandoned the sinking ship to land on another fleet which follows the same model of bad business) unless they did what Klei already does aplenty: (Status) Updates and Roadmaps.

Again, thank one and you basically thank everyone just to turn someone mood good or risk turning it foul. Even though I was happy to be the last "chosen one" for a while (i.e chosen as moderator), it's not a good kind of happy... it's like the primary reason for why many chosen moderators change into despotic ones and most of the moderation was moderating myself first, self-doubt hooray! (by the by, after that I played that game much less and incidentally being recognized was also rather rare in that MP game)

On something like this I do not want Klei to use resources on to make it somewhat right, like major publishers should put most of their money into the development of their work rather than advertising, so I want Klei to put their resources into the game and not 1% even if I am a part of that figure since I already have enough of the merit called "additional information" every 2 months.

 

Welp, that's about what I can and want to write on this topic with my past experience... Voluntary Community Moderator? Again? Only with enough pay, one I will actually use~ (ironically considering my past environment, the "dissidents" were actually easy pickings and there were no like buttons... but IP ones!)

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TheGCat    178

As an outsider in this discussion, it is nearly useless to speculate why he or why he not did something. He's gone. That's all. The problem is to publish great knowledge about a thing on just one site! So, he left and he's gone. Why have nobody make a copy of it ? That's another question.

Everybody of us acts a little bit different in several situations. That's okay! Some are like, some of u saying: "destructive, negative, arrogant". But that is just the half trueness. If something dissapoints u over and over again u will be get a negative person! That's human! And this has nothing to do with somebody said: "being a diva" or similar. I am by myself a harsh/direct person. Just few of u like this. The most of us want to be lied to. But to sugar code all situations is nothing i would like to do. It helps not.

So, next time make a copy!

Another thing i read in the forum was the physics thread. Everybody should calm down and accept, that other opinions exists in the world as the own one. Mostly the same people who calling other people destructive and negative, exile other people opinions.

And by the way:

People who can read source-code are not automatically not an idiot! U can be both! But mostly the people are not dumb. But, he can be a not good person. So everybody who can drive a car is automatically not an idiot too ? That has nothing to do with intelligence! In my humble opinion: "Each of us could read source-code, if u spent some time to learn it..." It's not magic. I can it too...

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DarkWalker    16
31 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

from the statistic of my old forum:

5% read the forums

1% post in it

The usual rule of thumb is that roughly 90% of a game's player base never bother looking into the game's forums, 9% only lurk, and just 1% contribute anything. Those are not precise numbers by all accounts, but reality rarely deviates much from them.

Which, incidentally, makes it dangerous to cater to the players that do post on the forums. They might be well-meaning, but they are a small fraction of the players, and heavily skewed towards the most engaged players to boot; they should be listened to, of course, but blindly following their suggestions and desires has the risk of distancing the game from the general public.

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goboking    1,355

I didn't want to weigh in on a topic about someone who no longer wishes to be a part of the community, but I do feel I compelled to speak to the larger issue developer communication. 

What you're asking for is developer feedback.  The reality is the developers are busy working on the game (especially now that they're in the crunch for final release), and that setting aside time to respond to our feedback on a regular basis would only slow the development of the game.  What's more, the game is still in development and things are too fluid for them to offer any deeper insights into what they're working on without setting expectations that may or may not be met (read: upsetting players who are excited about a feature that has to be scrapped). 

What we would get instead is someone from PR serving as a middleman between us and the developers, and most of what they'd provide us would be boilerplate responses like "we're aware of X" or "we're working on Y".  To a lot of people, such canned responses can be just as frustrating as no response at all.  I also want to point out that the developers do offer insights during their streams.  Granted, ONI isn't streamed weekly and they're guarded about what they can say, but they do acknowledge problematic issues and occasionally give hints at things to come. 

Lastly, I want to point out that those of use who have been members of this community for awhile have seen with our own eyes the real impact our feedback here has on the game.  Throughout the early access development period there have been changes made to the game, large and small, stemming directly from player suggestions and community feedback.  That, personally, is more important than a weekly developer post reminding us that they're aware of this and working on that.

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Mayveena    29

You can't compare a forum dedicated to basically public information like fluid dynamics to a forum dedicated to a game where only the developers fully know what the source code looks like and where they are going with it. While the ONI Biology chart person might have been very experienced with the game, there's no way he's more or even equal to the expertise of the developers, and therefore the devs are entitled to do what they wish with the author's information including not acknowledging it.

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