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camelot    126
Posted (edited)

Now she has no downside at all.

I know what Klei is doing. They'll buff every character to OP level to avoid complaints from people. Then they simply multiply bosses health by 10. Balance reached.

Edited by camelot
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Casm    95

Amazing QoL changes so soon after the update. Just incredible! This is exactly what was needed and more!

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Lakurius    385

Very interesting change, though i have to agree with the people who say that she still needs a downside; hunger is pretty easy to manage.

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Toros    840
10 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Some really nice changes, but as @Alarsin mentioned, she now has no drawback at all. Usefulness wise, she's almost at Wolfgang level, because for both of them, drawbacks aren't drawbacks, but minor inconveniences you won't even notice are happening. So now, Winona is tolerable to keep playing as, may even be quite fun, but still has not got any real reason to keep playing as, has no decent drawback and has powerful craftable structures that still make her very much droppable after setting up some canons and spotlights around. I would really suggest following changes:

1) Allow her to craft things with half the cost, as if she had construction amulet (with the amulet equipped, she could craft things as low as a quarter of a cost).

2) Allow her tape to repair armors and weapons.

3) For a drawback, she could have a higher hunger drain (x1.5 - x2 or so), may be with higher hunger overall (200 instead of 150? Or may be not, but x1.5 hunger drain with 150 hunger could work as a challenge), and when she hits a threshold, she would lose the ability to craft with half the resources, would craft slower than an average player and walk at 4 speed by default instead of 6.

4) May be make her to harvest things just as fast as she does crafting as well?

Only you would call her OP, think lack of a downside alone would put her at godly 3 level, and then suggest massive buffs and tiny trivial nerfs in the same breath.

Seriously, your ability to analyze the situation needs to be better before you can suggest useful changes.

 

That said, I think the Winona changes are great!

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Casm    95

Yeah, after thinking about it, I'm wondering if Winona's change is a bit of an over-correction for her 'weakness'. Because I have to agree with others in the thread, she practically doesn't have one at this point.

That being said now though, for the people suggesting that her generators should have an emergency mode or that the spotlights should only work and therefore drain power at nighttime, I only have this to say. The inefficient drawback of her generators is about the only 'weakness' her character has now, if you can call a minor inconvenience unique to her character a weakness. It's about the only thing that keeps her from being 'the' perfect character, at least until the further character reworks. If she were to receive even more QoL changes at this point, she'd just simply be too good, if she's not already.

I have hopes that she gets further fine-tuned, which doesn't always mean getting buffed.

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camelot    126
1 hour ago, Toros said:

Only you would call her OP, think lack of a downside alone would put her at godly 3 level, and then suggest massive buffs and tiny trivial nerfs in the same breath.

Seriously, your ability to analyze the situation needs to be better before you can suggest useful changes.

 

That said, I think the Winona changes are great!

Sometimes, people is very greedy without realizing it, lol

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4 Da LOLs    1,857

for the people who say she now is too good and now want Klei to give her downsides literally right after this gift of an update

most experienced players who would use her have massive supplies of food it wasn't much a downside just a annoyance  she is now less  punishing to the noobs and less annoying to sustain not eating at higher rates of Wolfgang

chill out like seriously its been less then twenty four hours

we don't know anything about the future tier list she may be a non top tier

we should relax maybe for awhile at least to let the Willow update come to see the new expectations for the new list

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EuedeAdodooedoe    1,186
5 hours ago, Toros said:

Only you would call her OP, think lack of a downside alone would put her at godly 3 level, and then suggest massive buffs and tiny trivial nerfs in the same breath.

Seriously, your ability to analyze the situation needs to be better before you can suggest useful changes.

 

That said, I think the Winona changes are great!

I don't think I agree with you on that one. Care to elaborate?

Slow walking speed, normal crafting values, slower crafting and resource collection speed when hungry can put the player in tough situations if you stay in ruins for too long or have critical situations to manage. Like many characters, having 2 - 3 good perks and either 2 average or 1 challenging perk seems like a fair way to go. What do you think her disadvantage should be then if she has perks as good as what I mentioned?

2 hours ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

for the people who say she now is too good and now want Klei to give her downsides literally right after this gift of an update

most experienced players who would use her have massive supplies of food it wasn't much a downside just a annoyance  she is now less  punishing to the noobs and less annoying to sustain not eating at higher rates of Wolfgang

chill out like seriously its been less then twenty four hours

we don't know anything about the future tier list she may be a non top tier

we should relax maybe for awhile at least to let the Willow update come to see the new expectations for the new list

Waiting till Willow changes, which may be next month would be too late, as she would be the focus. Winona is the focus this month, so I think it's best to have a lot of focus on the character before moving on.

 

 

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4 Da LOLs    1,857
1 minute ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Waiting till Willow changes, which may be next month would be too late, as she would be the focus. Winona is the focus this month, so I think it's best to have a lot of focus on the character before moving on.

but we don't know how she will compare to all the new reworks saying

shes op now doesn't mean when everyone gets their reworks she will still be comparably op

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maradyne    2,255
Posted (edited)

Eh, better to look at how traits interact with general gameplay than to compare it to the highest common denominator among the characters anyway.
A character being numerically weaker/stronger than another character doesn't automatically make them interesting.

Glad to say this update was a good step for the later point.

Edited by lifetheuniverse
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EuedeAdodooedoe    1,186
Just now, 4 Da LOLs said:

but we don't know how she will compare to all the new reworks saying

shes op now doesn't mean when everyone gets their reworks she will still be comparably op

I can see your point to an extent. The character should have perks that make them great, but some changes to some other character may nullify that. Woodie for instance was a great chopper, until Maxwell showed up and took all the glory, because his minions do the chopping faster, automatically and without penalty as opposed to him.

Though I do still stand by the point that she hasn't got much going for her to be played constantly. Bearable, but not really useful or having of a reason to play as her after some catapult and spotlight setup. If anything, I really wish she could be used to craft things at half the cost for her to be something to keep playing as and being more fun to play in general. With unique perks like that, a lot of the issues are solved, and there's not much of a room for usefulness conflicts to occur.

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x0VERSUS1y    2,818
4 minutes ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

shes op now doesn't mean when everyone gets their reworks she will still be comparably op

If next month Willow gets back her fire immunity and inventory burning damage then you will look indeed at current Winona rework and laugh. Heck, you will look at current Wolf and Wicker and laugh compared to how "broken ez pz op af" Willow will be - and can just take a glance at the 24 ropes burning damage vs Bee Queen to get an idea about it :butterfly:

Thus yes, context. See first in which direction the global characters rework is going. For now, again, I for one am content with Winona.

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4 Da LOLs    1,857
10 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I can see your point to an extent. The character should have perks that make them great, but some changes to some other character may nullify that. Woodie for instance was a great chopper, until Maxwell showed up and took all the glory, because his minions do the chopping faster, automatically and without penalty as opposed to him.

Though I do still stand by the point that she hasn't got much going for her to be played constantly. Bearable, but not really useful or having of a reason to play as her after some catapult and spotlight setup. If anything, I really wish she could be used to craft things at half the cost for her to be something to keep playing as and being more fun to play in general. With unique perks like that, a lot of the issues are solved, and there's not much of a room for usefulness conflicts to occur.

i know that she needs some incentive to not just spam catapults and be otherwise meaningless

i'm just saying that we should wait for they just gave us an update to fix her

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Sweaper    12
1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I don't think I agree with you on that one. Care to elaborate?

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Allow her to craft things with half the cost, as if she had construction amulet (with the amulet equipped, she could craft things as low as a quarter of a cost).

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__IvoCZE__    4,508
1 hour ago, Wilson_pl said:

They'll just balance all characters by making all of them OP, in a way. 

bu-bubuut WES?

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EuedeAdodooedoe    1,186

@Sweaper that doesn't explain much. It's a rather good and powerful perk, but how is that a bad idea? I don't think Toros elaborated enough with why they didn't like my suggestions, like the specifics and all that. Is it because you and they think that it's such a powerful perk, no character should have it at all no matter what?

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Dalek    235
10 hours ago, Majestix said:

Are you sure? Do you not want her catapults to also one-shot-kill every boss? And maybe all stats set to 400 for good measure? I am sure I could think of even more "improvements".

Chill out, mate, I just asked for a switch for generator, not for making Winona an OP-killing machine, there’s no reason to be toxic.

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Toros    840
3 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I don't think I agree with you on that one. Care to elaborate?

Slow walking speed, normal crafting values, slower crafting and resource collection speed when hungry can put the player in tough situations if you stay in ruins for too long or have critical situations to manage. Like many characters, having 2 - 3 good perks and either 2 average or 1 challenging perk seems like a fair way to go. What do you think her disadvantage should be then if she has perks as good as what I mentioned?

Waiting till Willow changes, which may be next month would be too late, as she would be the focus. Winona is the focus this month, so I think it's best to have a lot of focus on the character before moving on.

 

 

I don't normally waste my time doing a full breakdown, so please appreciate that I'm stooping for you.

1) I play wolfgang all the time.  It is incredibly easy to keep his hunger out of wimpy territory, and having a 50 hunger threshold for Winona would also be a completely trivial downside. 

2) The caves are full of food, particularly blue mushrooms, lichen, and monster meat.  Everywhere is full of food in DST.

3) The number of perks is irrelevant, what's important is the total magnitude of them.(if you care about balance) relative to other characters.  Wilson has no downside yet is not OP because his beard is a lot weaker perk than most people give it credit.  Willow has several perks and they don't remotely make up for her downsides, relative to other characters.

I don't know yet if Klei is going to do a "everyone gets equal amounts of upsides and downsides" balancing or if balance is really even a goal for the reworks as opposed to adding fun and identity.  I'm not against the balance point being everyone having a small perk, and the only characters that get downsides are those with more substantial perks.

While I think Winona is better than she was before, people have been cheesing bosses since before her rework (looking at you, bee queen and fuelweaver) and if we're pretending that people will just build her structures and swap then the problem isn't unique to Winona.

I think the rework is a huge step in the right direction and while I'm not against further tweaking I also don't think it's necessary for her to be fun or interesting to play.  If Klei is going to hit their monthly rework deadline then they need to not spend too much time tweaking and refactoring post release.

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Giggimish    662
On 3/12/2019 at 2:57 PM, V2C said:

Koelefant burning to death will now drop Koalefant Trunk Steak instead of Ash.

 

Best thing ever added to dst

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__IvoCZE__    4,508
18 hours ago, Majestix said:

Are you sure? Do you not want her catapults to also one-shot-kill every boss? And maybe all stats set to 400 for good measure? I am sure I could think of even more "improvements".

dude, you just said something that is not related to the post you quoted.

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Dalek    235
4 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

dude, you just said something that is not related to the post you quoted.

thanks

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