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Szczuku

Winona rework is interesting and I don't think it deserves that many negative comments

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Szczuku    8,204

Did community complain about original Winona? Yes. Did community ask for a rework? Yes. Did Klei rework her? Yes. Did community like that? Weeeeelll...

And here's where I come into play.

I've seen a lot of people leave negative feedback about reworked Winona and tbh I don't understand it.

The idea of hunger cost when crafting was being thrown around here way b4 Klei even announced 2019 roadmap. And now y'all are complaining. It's her only downside and it's so manageable it hurts. If you're playing with friends then they can craft if you don't feel like using your hunger. I'm playing Winona solo right now and I don't find it annoying. It's a nice counter balance to everything else she has going for her.

Now about that everything. Tape is fine now I guess since you use it in her crafting recipes and it can still act as a sewing kit.

Her catapult- many people complain that it's cheesy. ...excuse me? Maybe it is but then you should maybe consider Wickerbottom's books as cheesing cuz getting like 5 stacks of recources at the cost of sanity seems kinda op. But I guess since it's old news then y'all don't care.

You also need to know that there's a difference between using what game is giving you and abusing game's logic and physics. For example people call using 36 bunnyman hutches against Bee Queen as cheesing. Well the game allows me to do that I'm not exploiting any glitches etc so why it's so bad? I don't see anyone complaining about being able to just fully tank Dragonfly with 2 bone armors. However using lureplants and Hundious Shootious to abuse Fuelweavers lack of logic is indeed cheesing. It's the same as glitching out of the map and avoiding Autrium's dangers. If it comes at a cost and you need to fairly put a lot of time to achieve then it shouldn't be considered cheesing. Heck it takes more effort to do make 36 bunnyman hutches around Bee Queen then getting 6 players with armor and just pressing F untill Bee Queeen is dead.

Spotlight- this one is really great if you're playing solo but I can see why people that play with friends don't like it. But hey it's the same as Wicker's books in singleplayer. End is night and book about volcanos are pretty useless.

Generators- I agree that it'd be better if we could turn them on and off. Well at least with spotlight cuz I agree that it's pretty stupid that spotlight uses power even durring the day. But if devs think it's better this way then I won't complain. Cuz if you're playing with friends then it's pretty easy to just say "hey get some nitre since you're going to get a few stacks of rocks"

Anyway…

Winona's rework definitelly made her more interesting and unique. Her craftables create new playstyles. Is it perfect? No, but nothing on this flying-through-space ball is. Plus you should also take it into consideration that Klei probably uses this rework as a "testing the waters"-kind of method. Seeing what community likes, what it doesn't.

Well that's my feedback.

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I totaly agrre.Kle is one of few that listen to communitz and they do a good thing ,but still this toxic community will be negativ as always.

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Alexias    683

I don't think you should take complaining as negativity, people appreciate klei work, they are just giving their feedback.

Anyway

I don't think the rework is plain bad, it is half baked.

Her downside discourage crafting things with winona, I better to tell my friend to craft all needed chests so I don't lose hunger, which is counterintuitive.

Spotlight serve no purpose, you could save both space and resources by using fire pit.

Catapult is make fighting bosses easy and boring, you could just build catapult around them and just turtle, so I will not use it I rather have more interactive ways and fun to beat them.

So the idea is good but the balance is just bad,

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Majestix    230

I agree with almost everything the OP says. The only thing I will say is that On Tentacles, when used to cheese Bee Queen, is, in my opinion, also almost exploiting a glitch. I strongly suspect that the devs overlooked the trick with the knocked down walls, and that the intention was for tentacles to spawn anywhere where the players can walk. They worked so hard to give the BQ interesting mechanics and make her hard, that I cannot imagine that they envisaged her being killable with the player chilling at the campfire nearby.

 

Then came fuelweaver, an almost perfect boss design: requiring a lot of fairly involved preparation, the fight itself hard, but just about doable with enough practice, and rewarding loot. That they have now decided to make it almost trivial withough any exploits completely baffles me, and I hope that this decision will be reversed and the catapults nerfed somehow.

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Theukon-dos    1,588

Just because Wickerbottom can easily cheese the queen bee doesn't mean that she or Winona should be able to do so. Wickerbottom is considered the queen of DST, and balanancing around her would be a nightmare. The reason people are complaining about the catapults and not the tenticles is because the catapults are new and fresh on people's minds. On tentacles fully and utterly needs nerfed in it's own right. 

 

 

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NeddoFreddo    998
3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Her catapult- many people complain that it's cheesy. ...excuse me? Maybe it is but then you should maybe consider Wickerbottom's books as cheesing cuz getting like 5 stacks of recources at the cost of sanity seems kinda op. But I guess since it's old news then y'all don't care.

As of now I don't think it's fair to compare these two - there's a decent chance Wicker's books could get reworked completely, perhaps even to the point where cheese methods are not viable.

For all we know, Klei might have a completely different scope planned out for the game, introduced through character reworks. Since all the reworks are not being released at once, characters are bound to feel out of place temporarily.

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Ressayez    1,620

They introduced her and she had nothing for over a year. People are right to be critical of her rework. The last thing she needed was an obnoxious downside that makes it annoying for people to play her long term. Which is what the hunger penalty is, it's plain obnoxious. It's like giving Wolfgang a hunger penalty every time he hits an enemy in his mighty form, it's just plain stupid. Her structures are all people are focusing on, Hell, it was all I was focused on the first day of the update. Like 'em or loathe 'em, this isn't about her structures, it's about how Klei discouraged the builder from crafting and building. Giving her a hunger drain of around 1.25x to 1.5x and removing the penalty for crafting would remedy this, while still needing a bit more food than a Wilson and crafting slower while below half hunger.

I like Winona, I have since the start, but I'd like to see her changed so she's fun to play.

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4 Da LOLs    2,160
1 hour ago, Majestix said:

I hope that this decision will be reversed and the catapults nerfed somehow.

 

3 hours ago, Szczuku said:

The idea of hunger cost when crafting was being thrown around here way b4 Klei even announced 2019 roadmap. And now y'all are complaining. It's her only downside and it's so manageable it hurts. If you're playing with friends then they can craft if you don't feel like using your hunger. I'm playing Winona solo right now and I don't find it annoying. It's a nice counter balance to everything else she has going for her.

i had an idea last night before I slept on Winos balance and general enjoyment

cons

20-100% added hunger loss this replaces her original annoying -5 hunger per craft it just doesn't feel good and only makes her annoying in current state

Speedcraft only works when above like two thirds leaving you to keep your stats up removing the previous micro managing with her stupid hunger before

catapults don't naturally attack (i will explain this in pros)

possible weaker melee hits or added damage taken to make her more relent on the catapults making for a support gunner type playstyle while you have a team member distract and tank

Pros

catapults fire at an excelled rate but only if she gets on it when mounted clicking the ground will launch the catapult this would give her a reason to exist outside her catapults because she is needed for them to work this will also make her more fun being a dps machine and aiming shots properly to be most effective like a tower defense game but you are the tower pelting the monsters below you and best of all it would actually take skill to aim them

her previous buffs will still effect her as the tape and free Charlie hits

this would both give her more a reason to live outside boss killing and makes when she is living normally less bad also it would limit the amounts of catapults to one per Winona but they fire faster and you can control the shots making it better for base defense outside cheesing bosses

and the natural hunger loss will remove her anti fun hunger lost on craft

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EuedeAdodooedoe    1,187
23 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Now about that everything. Tape is fine now I guess since you use it in her crafting recipes and it can still act as a sewing kit.

...

Winona's rework definitelly made her more interesting and unique. Her craftables create new playstyles. Is it perfect? No, but nothing on this flying-through-space ball is. Plus you should also take it into consideration that Klei probably uses this rework as a "testing the waters"-kind of method. Seeing what community likes, what it doesn't.

Well that's my feedback.

Time to abandon all hope, I guess!

With a rework not working out, this is exactly what is ok to happen; they made changes, a lot of us disagreed, now they can tweak based on the feedback. But they won't hear about it if the feedback is mild and buried somewhere 10 pages in now is it? So "testing the waters" is exactly what they did, and this is what they should expect... or do you expect to have positive/neutral feedback all round no matter what happens, it really doesn't make any sense. Feels like for whatever reason, there seems to be nonsensical reaction from some people just because there's so much criticism regarding the update.

Comparing a rework with what's currently in place shows what people like, and gives thought to what players would rather have in the game instead. We all know tentacle fields are OP, we all know these cheese methods, but they are something that have stood still with no signs of rework. But with Winona, this IS a rework, and the expectation is to tune her in the end to make a great character as an asset, a challenge and being fun to play while simultaneously having a reason to play as her. And regarding Wicker, I'm sure many of us would expect reasonable nerfs to her books, while making her a more fun character to play as, with possibly some slightly harsher negatives. But that will come when her changes are to be made. Right now, only Winona is priority, and the way her mechanics are handled tick the boxes for all the fields I mentioned, except may be being a challenge, though an excessive one with nowhere near enough positive counterparts.

Never heard anyone ever mention before to have her hunger drain by points every time she crafts before the update, but if they did, that would seem just as bad an idea in theory as it is in practice; what is the point of faster crafting, if that is massively offset by the time you'll take to gather food, cook food and eat it? There's then no point to her faster crafting, who thought this was a good idea, I'm baffled; the faster crafting saves time, but then hunger drain adds time on to what you'll be doing to counter the hunger drain penalty for it, what is even the point in faster crafting then?

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Tapirus    1,655

You're right, Szczuku.

It's a bit ironic see a lot of people who wanted a change on Winona...now totally complaining about it...

Maybe the new project for Winona is not "perfect", but Klei has been working hard on this since a while, and deserve respect.

After all, the new update add new ways of play.

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FreyaMaluk    4,887

I completely agree with OP. I don't get why people complaint about the catapults all of the sudden. It's a nice addition that totally makes sense to her character.

I've said this before in another post, but i guess I'll have to repeat myself. Dear peeps, stop asking for this unattainable idea of "perfect balance" between characters. IMO, the devs are looking for different character that allow different playstyles to coexist and complement each other. The main decision factor should be making the different approaches to the game fun and unique.

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seffard    144

Your argument is twisted. A new issue doesnt become ok because you assume nobody is talking about the old ones or because these havent been fixed. This is horde thinking. I appreciate Klei's work as much as you do, but let's be honest: the rework made her an uneasy paradox. She can be as easy as difficult to handle things.

I can only hope they figure it out, because I also gave my feedback and suggestions.

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Ressayez    1,620

The people working on this game do read through at least some of our comments and I don't think any of the feedback so far has been coming from a bad place, quite the opposite from the looks of things. Myself and others would just like to see Winona changed for the better, to be given a reason to pick her over other characters. The faster crafting was something, but its been rendered null by the hunger penalty. We'll get nowhere if we avoid stating our opinions because we might hurt a dev's feelings. I don't think that line of thinking gives them enough credit anyways, the people at Klei are tough cookies :wilson_wink:

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I agree no matter what they do people will always complain so they should just do what they want to do. I personally like her now. 

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oCrapaCreeper    3,069

Simple fix to the hunger issue: Remove the -5 penalty and make her crafting speed scale with how much hunger she has, similar to how Wolfgang's damage scales with his hunger. Currently her speed is reduced when she has less than 50 hunger already, but I think we can remove the -5 penalty and further emphasis her hunger.

Near full: Current fast speed

Halfway empty: Regular speed

Near empty: Slower speed (slower than other characters)

 

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Prajdo    212

I feel like Winona shouldn't loss her hunger during crafting but her crafting speed should depend of her hunger status instead.

For example with 100% hunger rate she could craft something super fast, but around 80% it should be normal speed and of course with 50% or less her speed should be slow.

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FreyaMaluk    4,887
2 hours ago, Prajdo said:

I feel like Winona shouldn't loss her hunger during crafting but her crafting speed should depend of her hunger status instead.

For example with 100% hunger rate she could craft something super fast, but around 80% it should be normal speed and of course with 50% or less her speed should be slow.

I disagree. It's her only clear disadvantage to her cool crafting options. Without it it would be kinda OP IMO.

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FuffledBeeQueen    2,632

I like her, idk what others have against her, the rework was great and actually added a proper place for her in the team! Eitherway Im very excited what Willow will have in store in April

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Prajdo    212
10 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I disagree. It's her only clear disadvantage to her cool crafting options. Without it it would be kinda OP IMO.

I know that her mechanism was currently changed (i don't think is balanced now), but how about letting her craft with bonus speed with 80% hunger or above as an advantage and with less then 50% makes it slower and with a chance of fail as disadvantage.

I don't mean loosing resources by this but she could sometimes say something like "Dang! Can't do without a break" and stop. Imagine a situation when night starts and you are hungry. Then she fails to put on campfire and there's where her other perk can come in handy.

Leaving her with a disadvantage like that would force player to be always in check for her status. There's a lot of situations when slow crafting with a chance of failing could put her in very dangerous position.

 

I'm trying to find something other then that hunger loss as a disadvantage because it is kinda crazy. So what if she could craft with great speed if she would waste a lot of energy by doing that. I found myself as playing her in a situations when i was asking others to craft something for me because doing it fast with this ridiculous cost was not worthy. Earlier always Winona was the main crafter in the base. She was doing walls and chests. After that update she lost that position in the team.

BUT that was repaired with todays hotfix which made me really happy. Still it's not balanced yet. She can do a lot of things during one minute and that is her return to being main crafter but what about casual situations when your axe is broken and you need to craft new one or when night is coming and you have to put on a campfire. I would prefer to made those thing with normal speed without that hunger loss so I would ask others to do me some staff instead. I'm still thinking that her mechanism should be more control able like Wolf's strength. When you want to craft faster then you eat to full stomach. When you just need a new armor you just do it without looking at her hunger status. And when boss is coming then you first should eat something because you don't want your crafts during fight to be slow or even fail.

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pedregales    343
8 hours ago, Prajdo said:

I know that her mechanism was currently changed (i don't think is balanced now), but how about letting her craft with bonus speed with 80% hunger or above as an advantage and with less then 50% makes it slower and with a chance of fail as disadvantage.

Don't add RNG in crafting ever unless it makes sense for the game. In this game and for this character it makes no sense.

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