mathmanican

The Water Duplicator - A Homemade Water Geyser Providing Almost 20kg/s at 3C

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MRE_    2

I figured this out months ago while messing with a regolith melting design, planned on a huge post about it, but never got around to it. Made a 20kg/s Igneous rock or refined metal duplicator that produced more than 5 unblocked steam turbines worth of heat when cooling the material down to 230 degrees celcius, and took nothing but one steel craft a day to keep running, with the 82 stone hatches needed to eat that much more than supplying enough coal and eggshells for.

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mathmanican    863
25 minutes ago, MRE_ said:

planned on a huge post about it, but never got around to it

Would have been a fun read. :)  

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Lilalaunekuh    461
Posted (edited)

First nice thread ;)

I love it when someone takes a "bug" and makes something totally overengineering out of it^^

 

4 hours ago, mathmanican said:

If you want 600 dupes in your game, just build a few of these, and use @Lilalaunekuh's berry farm (see this post) for automated harvesting.

Thank you, that you like my farm. At least I am a bit a shamed of this "old" version of my farm.

48.000kcal a day with 8kg/s of water seems good till you realize you need no water while the plant is withering ...

Version 2.0 uses a water reservoir to feed each row of plants (in my case 40, but you could go for up to 41 or 42 if you use some additional pipes to buffer the water.)

48.000kcal a day with 5kg/s of water is the current production (still using 200kg/cycle of water more than I "really" need).

=> 5t of water / 1 reservoir is able to supply enough water to fully  grow 40 (up to 41) bristle berry plants

 

Spoiler

If I reach version 3.0 and solve my last problem I will make a thread.^^

Just building an automation based system to restart my farm based on it´s output. Withering got 2 stages of 2 cycles and each stage can reset on a reload.

=> It can take more than 4 cycles for an autoharvest to happen, so normal clocks are no viable solution.

 

Right now I am tinkering with a small room that will take in the bristle berries and seeds and will reset my farm after receiving 40 bristle berries before shipping them out to my kitchen.

(That would be an additional auto sweeper, 2 additional conveyor loaders and one refrigerator attached to each of the 6 rows ...

So now I need some advanced automation to keep these additonal buildings powered using my conductive wire^^

For now I have ~8kw attached to my wire and use 5 time slices to prevent any overload, but 11kw could slow things down.

If the autosweeper start to work to late the reset of my farm will be to late, resulting in less production.

And I am not sure if I want so spend my engergy on 6 always running refrigerator, just as a sensor^^)

 

Or is there a better solution I can´t think of ?

 

Edited by Lilalaunekuh
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badgamer123    31
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MRE_ said:

I figured this out months ago while messing with a regolith melting design, planned on a huge post about it, but never got around to it. Made a 20kg/s Igneous rock or refined metal duplicator that produced more than 5 unblocked steam turbines worth of heat when cooling the material down to 230 degrees celcius, and took nothing but one steel craft a day to keep running, with the 82 stone hatches needed to eat that much more than supplying enough coal and eggshells for.

darn it it seem I finally know why my regolith melting turn out to be 100000kg of igneous rock....I tho I afk too long lol


back to topic....amazing .....could u double anything with this?i think someone will make a Nat duplicator soon.

Edited by badgamer123

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Saturnus    2,705
6 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

For now I have ~8kw attached to my wire and use 5 time slices to prevent any overload, but 11kw could slow things down.

And I am not sure if I want so spend my engergy on 6 always running refrigerator, just as a sensor^^)

For both of these there is another option.

You really only have to turn on the sweepers and fridge 4 cycles after the reservoir has run out of water. You can have a priority system where each row have decreasing priority. While this might delay some resets, it will also ensure a continuous flow, and the delay is likely much shorter than the waits involved in time slicing.

Specifically for the fridge it certainly doesn't even need to be on all the time while the sweepers are active. Powering it on for 2 seconds every 20 seconds should be plenty. So it's on 10% of the time to check if the system is ready to be reset but only after 10 cycles of being off, like the sweepers.

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Lilalaunekuh    461
2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

4 cycles after the reservoir has run out of water.

That´s one of the problems. If I reload while my plants are withering, a normal 4 cycle timer will fail.

 

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

You can have a priority system where each row have decreasing priority. While this might delay some resets, it will also ensure a continuous flow, and the delay is likely much shorter than the waits involved in time slicing.

Right now my time slicing is just used to run my autosweepers/loaders inside the farm.

(My time slices guarantee that each row has at least one active sweeper, so worst case it´s the one with the longest conveyor rail.^^ But since I loose no resources while waiting it´s ok. Lights are off and no water is beeing consumed.)

With some priority system on my columns (not rows^^) I would be able to achieve a samller delay.

=> If I keep the sweeper with the shortest conveyor rail always on and just use timeslicing for the rest, my delay will always be the smallest (I can achieve using this reset method) without much change to my existing design.

 

2 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Specifically for the fridge it certainly doesn't even need to be on all the time while the sweepers are active. Powering it on for 2 seconds every 20 seconds should be plenty. So it's on 10% of the time to check if the system is ready to be reset but only after 10 cycles of being off, like the sweepers.

My farm was optimized without water free auto-harvest in mind^^

=> My current "reset" system is in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

counter.thumb.png.df0448f063c8626b8ae319560f16cc34.png

The system above had worked (using a full time working fridge ...).

I need no automation on my sweeper/loaders in this room since I know my auto-sweepers/loaders inside my farm will be finished.

Just the fridge is my "problem".

=> Like @Saturnus said there are good ways to cut the power usage by a huge margin

 

But I am still not 100% sure if that´s the best solution to reset my farm.

(A single smart battery attached to each row of auto-sweepers and conveyor loaders could yield much better results. If there is no other consumer on the line my normal automation to trigger a transformer/power generator could be used for the reset.)

Or do you know an other maybe even better solution ?

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Saturnus    2,705
Just now, Lilalaunekuh said:

That´s one of the problems. If I reload while my plants are withering, a normal 4 cycle timer will fail.

I don't see the problem at all. The 4 cycle timer just gives the point which the harvest can start. Not when it has to start. Basically when the 4 cycle timer elapses the sweepers are ready if no other sections has already reported ready. When the fridge is filled it is reset. As I said. I don't see the problem.

6 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

My time slices guarantee that each row has at least one active sweeper

Completely unnecessary. Sweepers do not have to be on at all for 10 cycles after the system is reset and growth cycle start. It doesn't even need to check. You potentially waste a ton of time doing time slicing.

At the end of the day though. It doesn't really matter if you optimize to slice off a few watts of total power consumption or make things slightly more compact. Up until now the important thing was to minimize water consumption. With the thread, even that is irrelevant. Need more water? Just build more 10kg/s water geyser blocks.

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mathmanican    863
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

back to topic....amazing .....could u double anything with this?i think someone will make a Nat duplicator soon.

Yep.  As long as the liquid can be solidified easily, by some thing else, this should work just fine.  Use super coolant (or maybe LOX - possible danger zone) for crude/petro/naptha, in the aquatuner loop. 

Edited by mathmanican

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Saturnus    2,705
2 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Yep.  As long as the liquid can be solidified easily, by some thing else, this should work just fine.  Use super coolant (or maybe LOX - possible danger zone) for crude/petro/naptha, in the aquatuner loop. 

I think you can safely use polluted water in the aquatuner loop as you don't as low temps due to higher SHC.

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Lilalaunekuh    461
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Saturnus said:
32 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

That´s one of the problems. If I reload while my plants are withering, a normal 4 cycle timer will fail.

I don't see the problem at all. The 4 cycle timer just gives the point which the harvest can start. Not when it has to start. Basically when the 4 cycle timer elapses the sweepers are ready if no other sections has already reported ready. When the fridge is filled it is reset. As I said. I don't see the problem.

Point for you ;) (My thought but not my text was about using a 4 cycle timer JUST to do the reset, for everything else it´s ok.)

But since my systems power consumption has grown, why not just use some heavy watt wire ?^^

(There is no downside in keeping my autosweepers/conveyor loaders active all the time.)

 

14 minutes ago, Saturnus said:
32 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

My time slices guarantee that each row has at least one active sweeper

Completely unnecessary. Sweepers do not have to be on at all for 10 cycles after the system is reset and growth cycle start. It doesn't even need to check. You potentially waste a ton of time doing time slicing.

Completley unnecessary if I would just use heavy watt wire ;)

But where is the problem if an autosweeper without something to do is active or not ?

(I only need one sweeper delivering one bristle berry to trigger a reset, so the only time I lose time would be when the furthest away sweeper is active while the plants auto-harvest.)

 

14 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It doesn't really matter if you optimize to slice off a few watts of total power consumption or make things slightly more compact.

Like I said the fridge is the only thing to optimize. (Auto-sweepers have always the same worktime to do the fixed amount of work.)

My current base was using 100% uptime fridges just because I have a huge power surplus and no need to save power.

But it´s a game and my goal is optimization ;)

 

PS: sry for hijacking this thread

Edited by Lilalaunekuh

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Saturnus    2,705
2 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Like I said the fridge is the only thing to optimize. (Auto-sweepers have always the same worktime to do the fixed amount of work.)

Then just cycle it on and off. Being on just 5-10% of the time should be plenty. You do it with a power switch.

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Lilalaunekuh    461
Just now, Saturnus said:
8 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Like I said the fridge is the only thing to optimize. (Auto-sweepers have always the same worktime to do the fixed amount of work.)

Then just cycle it on and off. Being on just 5-10% of the time should be plenty. You do it with a power switch.

My current thought is just if a power sensitive system would be superior.

If an autosweeper inside my farm starts working I am able to reset the water supply.

(No "reset"/sorting room, no additional power consumption besides the low daily power drain and I could still run everything on conductive wires.)

 

The version with the fridges works, but having 2 auto-sweeper that need to move each berry seems like a bad design.

=> Thank you for your input  and hope to hear from you when I start my own thread on this topic.

(Will start my thread when I am satisfied with my farm.)

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mathmanican    863
14 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I think you can safely use polluted water in the aquatuner loop as you don't as low temps due to higher SHC.

Original designs used polluted water and had to melt 7c water. I could not melt stuff fast enough. Now with a 3c bath i will try pw again. That was my original plan. I got too excited when I found this was possible.

I also have another optimization planned, namely in the  freezing area have the doors above with airflow below. This will prevent ice from getting colder. Version 24 and 25 coming soon.

34 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

PS: sry for hijacking this thread

No worries. Keep up the discussion. I need a way to use all this water.

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Saturnus    2,705
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Original designs used polluted water and had to melt 7c water. I could not melt stuff fast enough. Now with a 3c bath i will try pw again. That was my original plan. I got too excited when I found this was possible.

I also have another optimization planned, namely in the  freezing area have the doors above with airflow below. This will prevent ice from getting colder. Version 24 and 25 coming soon.

You also don't need it to be doors at all in the freezing area. Regular metal tiles should work fine. Especially when above the water.

If I was to give a suggestion it would be to half the output to just a compact 10kg/s cube. Very few people would realistically need more than that. And then they could just build more than one.

Edited by Saturnus
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mathmanican    863
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Saturnus said:

If I was to give a suggestion it would be to half the output to just a compact 10kg/s cube

How about this?

5c855de50ee52_Screenshotfrom2019-03-1012-53-18.png.c4328ad1f2f5252813bad213d3846719.png

Spoiler

5c855de2a7ca9_Screenshotfrom2019-03-1012-54-02.png.abbdea3759ba8a7a78578b2c6bfa4ad6.png

5c855de07b04f_Screenshotfrom2019-03-1012-54-57.png.7e3aba12cebf7fc01239c16f72ccb296.png

5c855de18aae4_Screenshotfrom2019-03-1012-54-39.png.d7c6bcf6cb94bb95dd035ab17b825e50.png

5c855de3cf23f_Screenshotfrom2019-03-1012-53-40.png.dd08abc121f87987169c7d619bd40b0c.png

This thing does not have an auto shutoff to prevent it from making enough liquid to crash the game, but since it is only half as big, you would have to ignore it for twice as long, or much longer, before that would happen.  Just turn it off when you have 50000kg per tile, and then turn it back on much later (or remove one airflow tile, lose the square shape, and put in protection). 

Some comments. 

  • Hydro sensor currently set at 200kg.  You don't want to exceed 500kg, else the ice freezes into blocks.  If you exceed 200, then the system cannot produce enough cold to freeze the water. So far I've watched my water level hover between 40kg and 110kg. Never once has it gone up to 200kg (so the pump is running full time). 
  • I currently have the liquid sensor on the aquatuner at -8. The PW will drop to -22C, but the system produces -20.6 to -20.8C water pretty consistently (haven't seen it once drop below -21).  
  • With oil, I would need to spend more energy on power, but I could easily keep the water level down and maintain a 10kg/s inflow of water.  The sweeper arm runs on/off, but no worries as it's fine if ice is melted at 5kg/s or 15kg/s, as the average melt rate will be 10kg/s. 

To make this contraption, the biggest wait is a metronics engineer and some research. Pretty simple. 

Edited by mathmanican
typos

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Saturnus    2,705
11 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

How about this?

Very similar to my own experiment. I just left in room for hydro sensors. I'm not getting 10kg/s consistently though. I'll tweak it a bit more.

image.thumb.png.1f27e37782ad61b84cb7b2b45029f4f7.png

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mathmanican    863
9 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

'm not getting 10kg/s consistently though

It's almost always a little less. I have not tracked down what makes the matter replicate or not. I do see that your conveyors go all the way to the right most water square. I also see them in the middle of your tank.

  •  When mine extended to the left most water square, the ice would melt and disappear (complete mass loss).  I wonder if that happens on the right side as well. 
  • When I melt stuff in the middle of the liquid bath, not on the bottom row of water, I also see a much lower rate of duplication.  The door row, and bottom layer of water, seem to be the spots where duplication occurs with highest frequency (anecdotal evidence so far - I haven't conducted thorough tests, but enough to make a conjecture). 

Glad that I made something you wanted to tweak.  I look forward to seeing your improvements. This is reminiscent of your Borg Cube.

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Saturnus    2,705
2 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

I do see that your conveyors go all the way to the right most water square.

They don't though. I avoid the left- and right-most water tiles as suggested.

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mathmanican    863
1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

They don't though

Face palm.  Oops.  Just looked again. You are right. \

I do wonder if the middle of that bath, rather than bottom row, plays a part.  At this point, the fact that we can make a water duplicator is what is absurd. Optimizing it is now just sheer fun and joy. 

With the next patch notes, I'll put in a comment to @Ipsquiggle, unless he wants to put a "thank you" in this post somewhere, just to make sure he sees the problem.  He's been pretty great recently about putting a thankyou on bugs/exploits like this.  They know the bugs are there (even if they haven't updated the bug tracker. 

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Saturnus    2,705

Played with it a bit more. Compacted it and made it much more consistent by introducing counter-current cooling flow. Now it only freezes in the two right most tiles in the upper chamber where it picked up immediately as the sweeper doesn't have to swing around at all anymore. Water will fill the gap left behind but is cooled down on the way freezing very fast.

One thing however.  In order to compact it I did need to get rid of the overpressurized water reservoir so now the bilge pump will start at 1100kg. It's only averaging 8kg/s water at about 4C though but for the compactness I'm ok with that. And it does seem like it's picking up slightly over time.

image.thumb.png.1eb23fbcb65cef1caff03f402596093c.png

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mathmanican    863
5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Compacted it and made it much more consistent by introducing counter-current cooling flow.

It's a thing of beauty. I'm excited to see even more improvements. 

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MRE_    2
On 3/10/2019 at 4:55 AM, badgamer123 said:

darn it it seem I finally know why my regolith melting turn out to be 100000kg of igneous rock....I tho I afk too long lol


back to topic....amazing .....could u double anything with this?i think someone will make a Nat duplicator soon.

You can duplicate anything that freezes into the same thing it melts into, eg Igneous rock, water and refined metal work, but trying to duplicate granite would give you Igneous rock instead, as granite melts into magma, which in turn freezes into Igneous rock.

 

I'll make the post tomorrow I suppose

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iAbaddon    0
Posted (edited)

Thank you! I was quite concerned about the liquid oxygen mass in my frost room because it appears again and again and i can't find the reason where it from.

Edited by iAbaddon

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