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My oil well is submerged in a lake of crude, due to the location of my reservoir.  Unfortunately, that means it is now 116 C.  I send water to it at around 99 C, to help delete heat, but now, instead of pumping oil, the water vaporizes right as it goes into the well, instead of pumping oil.  All the pipes to the well are insulated.  Has anyone else noticed this behavior and know if it is by design or not?  I filed a bug in case it is not intended.

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Neotuck    1,778

If it's submerged in oil then why do you need to pump in water for more oil?

pump out and use the oil you have and once the lake runs dry use the oil well

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Sure, I can do that.  I just figured I could increase my reserves if I pump constantly.  Also, I don't have anything else to do with the 1 kg/s of water right now, so I either have to store that or over-pressurize the geyser.  The idea of giving up free water makes me nervous, but I also don't want to build a giant water reservoir until I start using up all my oil.

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7 hours ago, Neotuck said:

If it's submerged in oil then why do you need to pump in water for more oil?

pump out and use the oil you have and once the lake runs dry use the oil well

I think you need to quote your other post alot, when someone post his/her problem in this forum, most of them don’t want easy answer.

 

to try to answer op question, one could use a valve to limit liquid or gas packet to 10% to prevent state change.

Edited by fishoutofwater

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Sasza22    1,067
8 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

at around 99 C

Well the problem is that the water is super close to boiling. Even with insulated pipes it will reach boiling point if the outside temperature is above 100oC. Only alternative would be to use the super insulator from space for the pipes.

More realisitic would be cooling the water to around 85oC. This should be low enough for it not to break.

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DaveSatx    66
7 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Sure, I can do that.  I just figured I could increase my reserves if I pump constantly.  Also, I don't have anything else to do with the 1 kg/s of water right now, so I either have to store that or over-pressurize the geyser.  The idea of giving up free water makes me nervous, but I also don't want to build a giant water reservoir until I start using up all my oil.

for heat deletion and as you say a larger reserve, pipe down hot, nearly boiling polluted water,  it has a higher temp after all.  then sieve it close to your well.  that lets you delete heat twice since the pipe in the 116C oil will warm slowly and the water flow will keep it cooler.

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3 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Well the problem is that the water is super close to boiling. Even with insulated pipes it will reach boiling point if the outside temperature is above 100oC. Only alternative would be to use the super insulator from space for the pipes.

More realisitic would be cooling the water to around 85oC. This should be low enough for it not to break.

Actually, the pipes aren't the issue.  The last pipe segment that attaches to the well shows the water is just fine, and no pipes have broken.  What is funny is that phase changes in pipes break pipes, but phase changes in buildings are just fine (hence, why a Metal Refinery will happily convert Crude to Petro, but will break the outflow pipe).  Seems like it would be more consistent if buildings and pipes used the same rules.

At first, when I saw bubbling up from my well, I thought it was NatGas even though nobody was operating the well.  Logically speaking, the well should be pumping the water down into the Oil Reservoir.  And if it did so using the same insulation as my pipes, then this would totally not be an issue.  The insulated pipes leading to the well have a temp of 116.7 C, and they are not boiling their contents.  So basically, the problem is that the Oil Well itself is acting like a single length of uninsulated pipe.  That is what's frustrating.

2 hours ago, DaveSatx said:

for heat deletion and as you say a larger reserve, pipe down hot, nearly boiling polluted water,  it has a higher temp after all.  then sieve it close to your well.  that lets you delete heat twice since the pipe in the 116C oil will warm slowly and the water flow will keep it cooler.

Hmm...a sieve is an interesting idea.

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Neotuck    1,778
48 minutes ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Hmm...a sieve is an interesting idea.

do you have a steady supply of CO2?

I'm assuming your 99C water is coming from a cool steam vent 

If you have a good supply of CO2 you can make a skimmer/sieve combo to bring the water down to 40C and turn your extra CO2 into dirt at the same time

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Rogue Witch    36

Cmon man, Do you think insulated pipes are 100% insulated that you hope for 99 degree water to remain at 99 when the surrounding is much higher. Please have a buffer for every design.

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DaveSatx    66
3 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Actually, the pipes aren't the issue.  The last pipe segment that attaches to the well shows the water is just fine, and no pipes have broken.  What is funny is that phase changes in pipes break pipes, but phase changes in buildings are just fine (hence, why a Metal Refinery will happily convert Crude to Petro, but will break the outflow pipe).  Seems like it would be more consistent if buildings and pipes used the same rules.

At first, when I saw bubbling up from my well, I thought it was NatGas even though nobody was operating the well.  Logically speaking, the well should be pumping the water down into the Oil Reservoir.  And if it did so using the same insulation as my pipes, then this would totally not be an issue.  The insulated pipes leading to the well have a temp of 116.7 C, and they are not boiling their contents.  So basically, the problem is that the Oil Well itself is acting like a single length of uninsulated pipe.  That is what's frustrating.

some of what is happening is just the same as the refinery.  as soon as it tries to enter (or leave) the water phase changes. don't keep water in the pipe when dupes aren't around.  even my idea of pH2O and a sieve won't fix this.

either drain the oil off a bit, perhaps with some serious scalding in the process lol.  or  set up a loop using bridges and only allow water to pass down into the pipe if a dupe is in there using automation.  if you put another bit of  loop just above the well with a shutoff thats flipped to the first one, you can drain off the water when the dupe  isn't there.

What that other user (won't quote since it was a rude reply) said about insulated pipes is true but isn't a problem if the water isn't standing.

3 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Hmm...a sieve is an interesting idea.

3 hours ago, Neotuck said:

do you have a steady supply of CO2?

I'm assuming your 99C water is coming from a cool steam vent 

If you have a good supply of CO2 you can make a skimmer/sieve combo to bring the water down to 40C and turn your extra CO2 into dirt at the same time

 

and/or just use an infinite loop on your washrooms and pump the overflow down to the well.  supplement with the wild pWater all over the place :)  

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2 hours ago, Rogue Witch said:

Cmon man, Do you think insulated pipes are 100% insulated that you hope for 99 degree water to remain at 99 when the surrounding is much higher. Please have a buffer for every design.

Like I said, the insulated pipes pass through several tons of crude at 116 C without changing the temp of the water.  So yeah, the insulated pipes aren't the problem.  The fact that the Oil Well isn't insulated is the problem.

3 hours ago, Neotuck said:

do you have a steady supply of CO2?

I'm assuming your 99C water is coming from a cool steam vent 

If you have a good supply of CO2 you can make a skimmer/sieve combo to bring the water down to 40C and turn your extra CO2 into dirt at the same time

At this point I'm sending CO2 to slicksters, but I may decide that the pwater + dirt is better later on.  Right now I'm ok with bristle + mushroom, but I guess you need dirt for sleet.

17 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

some of what is happening is just the same as the refinery.  as soon as it tries to enter (or leave) the water phase changes. don't keep water in the pipe when dupes aren't around.  even my idea of pH2O and a sieve won't fix this.

[...]

I thought you could send clean water through the sieve and still get heat deletion.  Is that no longer the case?

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Neotuck    1,778
2 minutes ago, Lawnmower Man said:

At this point I'm sending CO2 to slicksters, but I may decide that the pwater + dirt is better later on.  Right now I'm ok with bristle + mushroom, but I guess you need dirt for sleet.

It's just my opinion but slickster ranching isn't worth it

The amount of oil/petroleum you get back seems like diminishing returns for the effort 

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beowulf2010    146
8 minutes ago, Lawnmower Man said:

I thought you could send clean water through the sieve and still get heat deletion.  Is that no longer the case?

Nope. Clean water passes through with no effect. If you want to delete heat out of clean water your choices are oil wells, carbon scrubbers, steam turbines and electrolizers. 

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Neotuck    1,778
13 minutes ago, Lawnmower Man said:

I thought you could send clean water through the sieve and still get heat deletion.  Is that no longer the case?

@beowulf2010 beat me to it

4 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Nope. Clean water passes through with no effect. If you want to delete heat out of clean water your choices are oil wells, carbon scrubbers, steam turbines and electrolizers. 

 

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badgamer123    14
4 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Like I said, the insulated pipes pass through several tons of crude at 116 C without changing the temp of the water.  So yeah, the insulated pipes aren't the problem.  The fact that the Oil Well isn't insulated is the problem.

 

(first time this forum,if i break some rule let me know lol)
I actually has the same problem with my oil well like him.my oil well give random steam in oil biome,the large oil pool is ~108 degree
I pump in my water from water geyser around 78-90 degree. the final part of the insulated piped is made with insulation insulated piped.I did check it was 90 degree when going in the oil well

the oil well is 50% submerge in oil,and i can see the water inside it raising in temp from 90 to 98 something.
the same content temp change also happen in AETN but seen it was cooling down it don't hurt much except wasted a bit of cooling

getting steam in oil sector is pain in the a-ss to fix(OK the confession i use debug to get ride of steam in case it start running everywhere)
the oil well actually build up 150 kg of steam and 250kg of Nat gas....(I building it inside a box for easy nat gas recapture)

edit: the reason oil is 108 is I gonna use that oil convert to pet ,so a bit hotter oil is more useful (planning to make the whole oil pool to 150 degree....but those oil well stop working due to water in to steam to fast)

Edited by badgamer123

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7 hours ago, Rogue Witch said:

Cmon man, Do you think insulated pipes are 100% insulated that you hope for 99 degree water to remain at 99 when the surrounding is much higher. Please have a buffer for every design.

Spoiler

5c452d7f0902a_OxygenNotIncludedScreenshot2019_01.20-18_23_31_05.thumb.png.10f1fa9d0ca938ed64a9eb8e2a97d3f2.png

I guess it was a bug, because after reload, it works just fine.  You can see here that the well is swimming in 114 C crude, that the water in the pipes is actually over 100 C (but less than 103, so no steam yet), and the well is pumping just fine.  It looks like it works somewhat like a liquid pump, where it takes in a whole packet of water and then consumes it a sip at a time (hence, the 3611.9 g of water inside the well).  The temp goes up maybe 0.1 C/m through the insulated pipes.

The main deficiency here is that my water pipe and reservoir are sitting right in the exhaust path when it vents the hot NatGas.  I'll want to move those over eventually.  Not sure why the well contains 6.4 kg of Naphtha, but I noticed that another reservoir contained 10 kg of Gold Amalgam, so go figure.

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Rogue Witch    36
2 hours ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Not sure why the well contains 6.4 kg of Naphtha, but I noticed that another reservoir contained 10 kg of Gold Amalgam, so go figure.

Haha, Is it that the Oil well also emits a random element everytime it depressurizes and emits NatG. Would be a cool rng feature though.

Btw I didnt know that you could heat water to 103 C without it changing phase. In ONI there is always something new to learn everyday.

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ishakaru    21
14 hours ago, Rogue Witch said:

Btw I didnt know that you could heat water to 103 C without it changing phase.

There is a 3 degree buffer for phase change. So ~103 to boil, ~97 to condense. This helps prevent constant phase changes.

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greggbert    68

One solution I've used for almost boiling water is to mix in a tiny bit of 40C water with a valve turned on very low, then after the pipes join put a reservoir where the water can mix together.   By adjusting the valve just so, you can use a  really small amount of cooler water to get the temperature down to 95, similar to what you would do in a real life shower, mixing hot and cold together.  I keep a few reserve tanks of 40C from my sieves just for this very purpose and it works great.  Just make sure the "cold" pipe joins the hot pipe immediately after the valve so the cold water doesn't pool up in the pipes causing you to use too much cold water, which is wasteful.

Edited by greggbert

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2 hours ago, ishakaru said:

There is a 3 degree buffer for phase change. So ~103 to boil, ~97 to condense. This helps prevent constant phase changes.

I think it's also a poor man's attempt at simulating the latent heat of evaporation/etc.

1 hour ago, greggbert said:

One solution I've used for almost boiling water is to mix in a tiny bit of 40C water with a valve turned on very low, then after the pipes join put a reservoir where the water can mix together.   By adjusting the valve just so, you can use a  really small amount of cooler water to get the temperature down to 95, similar to what you would do in a real life shower, mixing hot and cold together.  I keep a few reserve tanks of 40C from my sieves just for this very purpose and it works great.  Just make sure the "cold" pipe joins the hot pipe immediately after the valve so the cold water doesn't pool up in the pipes causing you to use too much cold water, which is wasteful.

I will say that reservoirs are very useful tools for distributing heat instantly through 5t of liquid.  Good luck getting that kind of thermal conductivity on an open pool.  Only problem is if you want to average out more than 5t.  Then you need a complicated system of mixing.

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KittenIsAGeek    582

OK, everyone is missing that the building in question has a reservoir for water.  The normal operation of the oil well is that water flows in through the pipes to fill the reservoir, then the building 'uses' the water in the reservoir as part of its operating process.  This reservoir is considered insulated, but its based on the material the building is made of.  The Oil Well is made from metals, which have a high conductivity.  The insulated version has 1/100th the conductivity, but in the case of metals this is still high enough to pass a sufficient amount of heat in to boil the water.  Thus, if your oil well is sitting in 107c oil and the water coming in is at 97c, the water will quickly warm up enough to turn into steam -- without breaking pipes -- and your oil well will no longer have any water in its reservoir to operate.

Remember, the reservoir is only large enough to hold enough water for 1 tick of operation.  This is 1000g of water.  To take it from 97c to 107c requires only 42k DTUs.  One tile of of crude, lets say 500kg, at 107c contains 90m DTUs.  Its no contest, the water will evaporate without really changing the temperature of the oil.

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57 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

[...]

Remember, the reservoir is only large enough to hold enough water for 1 tick of operation.  This is 1000g of water.  To take it from 97c to 107c requires only 42k DTUs.  One tile of of crude, lets say 500kg, at 107c contains 90m DTUs.  Its no contest, the water will evaporate without really changing the temperature of the oil.

Water flows through pipes at 10 kg, and the pic I posted above shows my well with 3000+g of water.  So not exactly sure how it works mechanically, but it's not exactly the way you describe.  The other objection I have is that the SHC is not the only factor...the thermal conductivity also comes into play here.  The entire point of insulation is to lower the conductivity dramatically.  Also, my picture shows that even 100.4 C water only goes up to 100.5 inside the well, surrounded by 114 C crude.  So when it's not bugged, the insulation works exactly the way I hope and expect.  Most likely, I somehow lost the insulated flag on the oil well.  Maybe a cosmic ray flipped a bit in my RAM.  It's working great now!

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KittenIsAGeek    582
1 hour ago, Lawnmower Man said:

Water flows through pipes at 10 kg, and the pic I posted above shows my well with 3000+g of water.  So not exactly sure how it works mechanically, but it's not exactly the way you describe.  The other objection I have is that the SHC is not the only factor...the thermal conductivity also comes into play here.  The entire point of insulation is to lower the conductivity dramatically.  Also, my picture shows that even 100.4 C water only goes up to 100.5 inside the well, surrounded by 114 C crude.  So when it's not bugged, the insulation works exactly the way I hope and expect.  Most likely, I somehow lost the insulated flag on the oil well.  Maybe a cosmic ray flipped a bit in my RAM.  It's working great now!

I just ran through a whole bunch of math that suggests you might be right.  The delta-Q for a 13.6c temperature difference isn't enough to change the temperature if insulated copper is the limiting factor.  However, the evaporation point of water is 99.4C.  In game, there's a built in hysteresis to prevent alternating condensing/evaporating, so the temperature will have to be above that. My tests show that after water converts to steam, the steam will be at 101.4c.  However, it will not condense back into water until 97.4c.  The water you're feeding in to your system is right in the middle of the transition area.  

Depending on how the thermal functions within the code operate, there may be a critical point during the transfer from the pipes to the oil well that allows just enough shift in temperature to cause the problem.  Alternatively, there could be a point while the well is operating that for one tick it has no water in it.  During that tick, the copper reservoir will be considered a vacuum with 117c walls.  The first water that falls in will instantly vaporize into steam and cause the problem you're writing about.

I tried to run a simulation, pumping 99.8c water through 116.9c crude oil using insulated granite pipes (the closest I could find to insulated copper).  Unfortunately, the action of the pump turned the water immediately into steam and nothing ever got into the pipes. 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.d59cb361d0859404404a9299bf6361a3.png

image.thumb.png.afe40238fbe5eaa07311dd3720bd9059.png

This suggests that there is a mechanic within the code that we aren't yet familiar with.  Possibly it compares the element to be moved from one container to another (pumped into a pipe, pipe to oil well, etc) with its temperature and if it is above the temperature of a phase change, immediately changes it into the next phase.  You'll notice the steam is 99.7c, which is different from what I stated above for the temperature of steam after a phase change.  This is because those numbers were found by boiling the water using a hot plate, and then condensing it with a super-coolant radiator.

After some more work, I got my experiment to work.  Occasionally steam would instantly form rather than pumping into the pipe, but not always.  The water that did manage to go through the pipe showed very little temperature change.  I'm still not certain what the mechanic is, but occasionally water coming out the valve side would instantly turn to steam at 99.8c.  So at both sides, there were occasional but unpredictable phase changes.

Edited by KittenIsAGeek
redundantly redundant words redacted redundantly.

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8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

[...]

After some more work, I got my experiment to work.  Occasionally steam would instantly form rather than pumping into the pipe, but not always.  The water that did manage to go through the pipe showed very little temperature change.  I'm still not certain what the mechanic is, but occasionally water coming out the valve side would instantly turn to steam at 99.8c.  So at both sides, there were occasional but unpredictable phase changes.

Wow, that's...very thorough.  However, I believe the phase change buffer is 3 C, so the boiling point should be 102.4 C.  The steam bubble probably cools as soon as it's created because it's surrounded by water and has low mass relative to the surrounding water.

That being said, it looks like you have a pretty solid bug repro case here.  You got water < 100 C to boil with just a pump that is also < 100 C.

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