Mr.Mulk Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Spoiler 1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said: again there are similar ideas for most rebalance posts, specially concerning Willow, Woodie and Winona.. I've already seen threads integrating polls with the most popular suggestions... maybe instead of repeating "we are not unified" and dwelling about it ad nauseam, we write an open letter to Klei with a poll with the most suggested character rebalance ideas for the aforementioned characters... I can help translating the questions into Spanish and German. A more accurate way of describing it would be "ideas of a similar vein" as the ideas themselves vary wildly in both constitution and impact they would have on the game. People make a variety of differing conflicting suggestions that could potentially have significant unintended consequences, or no impact whatsoever (or just be unrealistic to implement). For example, I've heard of suggestions to give Willow literal pyromancing magic and also heard suggestions to make bernie fight back, one of which is insane and would make her OP and the other which wouldn't change a darn thing in the slightest. Don't even get me started on Winona rebalances I've heard suggested, some of those come straight out of left field. Actually finding rebalances for each character everyone can agree on is a nearly impossible task, and while it doesn't require 100% community support, even one dissenter in the thread may be enough to get Klei to reconsider. And that's the issue I'm addressing primarily. Spoiler I've already seen threads integrating polls with the most popular suggestions... Anecdotal evidence is meh. That goes for me too. Finally if you consider three messages in a thread "ad nauseam" that's uh, well that's something I'm not quite sure how to put it. I'm all for actually doing something, but first we gotta actually get a rebalance people can agree on, and until then I'm not going to shy away from the fact the community appears to be incapable of agreeing on seemingly anything. You know what has been done ad nauseam? The number of rebalance threads that fall apart into petty arguments from disagreements in rebalancing. Along with that is the wildly differing suggestions given by the community which have clearly not been thought through all the way. I'm still a fan of rebalance threads, I think their existence is important as a message, but that message won't be coherent until they're saying the same thing in detail, not just in the general sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Mr.Mulk said: Reveal hidden contents A more accurate way of describing it would be "ideas of a similar vein" as the ideas themselves vary wildly in both constitution and impact they would have on the game. People make a variety of differing conflicting suggestions that could potentially have significant unintended consequences, or no impact whatsoever (or just be unrealistic to implement). For example, I've heard of suggestions to give Willow literal pyromancing magic and also heard suggestions to make bernie fight back, one of which is insane and would make her OP and the other which wouldn't change a darn thing in the slightest. Don't even get me started on Winona rebalances I've heard suggested, some of those come straight out of left field. Actually finding rebalances for each character everyone can agree on is a nearly impossible task, and while it doesn't require 100% community support, even one dissenter in the thread may be enough to get Klei to reconsider. And that's the issue I'm addressing primarily. Reveal hidden contents I've already seen threads integrating polls with the most popular suggestions... Anecdotal evidence is meh. That goes for me too. Finally if you consider three messages in a thread "ad nauseam" that's uh, well that's something I'm not quite sure how to put it. I'm all for actually doing something, but first we gotta actually get a rebalance people can agree on, and until then I'm not going to shy away from the fact the community appears to be incapable of agreeing on seemingly anything. You know what has been done ad nauseam? The number of rebalance threads that fall apart into petty arguments from disagreements in rebalancing. Along with that is the wildly differing suggestions given by the community which have clearly not been thought through all the way. I'm still a fan of rebalance threads, I think their existence is important as a message, but that message won't be coherent until they're saying the same thing in detail, not just in the general sense. I consider "ad nauseam" you repeating we are not united but not giving a concrete idea on how to tackle the problem you are like rn we call in my mother language... "drowning in a glass of water," meaning overcomplicating things for the sake of it. I think if you number some of the most balanced and more lore friendly suggestions for a poll with an open letter to klei instead of another post that would be forgotten after a while.. it would probably make a bigger impact. I like ideas for character rebalance too.. but tbh there are ofc things I wouldn't even mention cuz they are very far away from DS lore and general concept. let's focus on things that make sense.. and just make a list with some of the suggestions from this thread Woodie: - natural armor as werebeaver: 60-70% ---- OR --- he doesn't drop head gear as werebeaver, and can equip new equipment on the floor (remember that big head Wolfgang is a thing) - Remove sanity drain during Werebeaver phase, instead make the wood meter drain faster --- OR --- Reduce his insanity drain to at least -15/s (instead of -90/s) - water and cold resistance as werebeaver (a werebeaver with no water resistance is just very illogical and he is covered in fur... there is no reason why he should freeze in winter. Following that logic, he overheats faster in summer as werebeaver only on the surface) what could we suggest more for woodie, willow and winona? kinda sleepy rn so I will go back to it later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Mulk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Spoiler 49 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: I consider "ad nauseam" you repeating we are not united but not giving a concrete idea on how to tackle the problem The only reason I've "repeated" it is because you keep on retorting to it, and I keep pointing out that it's a real issue in response. If you don't like that then stop responding to the point. Furthermore, it's not my job to fix the issue, I can give suggestions if I want, and state I like ideas of others, but there's not some sort of legal obligation for me to actually do something about it. With that being mentioned I already said I'd be cool with some action on it, because I'd like a rebalance, not because it's my job to make a rebalance happen. Spoiler 49 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: you are like rn we call in my mother language... "drowning in a glass of water," meaning overcomplicating things for the sake of it. This is a decent example of an ad hominem fallacy, not much more can be said. If you think I somehow enjoy the disorganization or talking about it I can assure you I don't, I call it a problem for a reason. Spoiler 49 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: Woodie: - natural armor as werebeaver: 60-70% ---- OR --- he doesn't drop head gear as werebeaver, and can equip new equipment on the floor (remember that big head Wolfgang is a thing) - Remove sanity drain during Werebeaver phase, instead make the wood meter drain faster --- OR --- Reduce his insanity drain to at least -15/s (instead of -90/s) - water and cold resistance as werebeaver (a werebeaver with no water resistance is just very illogical and he is covered in fur... there is no reason why he should freeze in winter. Following that logic, he overheats faster in summer as werebeaver only on the surface) what could we suggest more for woodie, willow and winona? kinda sleepy rn so I will go back to it later None of this is bad, I'd be fine with these changes being added to a manifest* to be worked on by the community. As for Willow goes I've spent some time in discussion about two major changes: - Fire immunity being brought back -Inventory burning, maybe somewhat nerfed, being brought back Really if you just added those in perhaps with a couple other lesser tweaks it'd be a genuinely good buff that's been much needed. At first I advocated initially for the total reversion of DST Willow to DS but since then I've relented on this point (I'd still personally be OK with it of course) due to insanity fires leading to unintentional base griefing. Honestly I say caveat empetor but apparently that's actually a very unpopular belief to hold. Regardless, full DS Willow (with inventory burning and everything) would be more than enough of a buff to make her a fun character again. I'll be honest as far as Winona goes I haven't really played her much and cannot offer well thought out insight as a result. I'm not dumb, I can see she doesn't have a lot going on, but I'm not sure I'd be a good authority to make any suggestions to rebalancing her in a way that's fair and makes her more fun. *Addendum: Actually, I think the idea of a community lead manifest might not be the worst idea to create a foundation to run a poll from. Controlling it would be difficult but if executed correctly it could be a uniting force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rellimarual Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said: you are like rn we call in my mother language... "drowning in a glass of water," meaning overcomplicating things for the sake of it. This is a great saying. I don’t care about rebalancing at all, but now I’m glad I read this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petit Citron Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Wickerbottom should be a vegetarian. This idea is probably dumb, as I don't play her enough nor i spent enough time thinking about it, I like it however for its ability to both nerf her and make crop farming an actually interesting strategy (which is not, at this time, needless to say). As for Winona, she should be - among other things - the fix-it-all character, able to repair anything that is wearable : - 1 tape type recipe for clothing. - 1 tape type recipe for armor / weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Petit Citron said: Wickerbottom should be a vegetarian. This idea is probably dumb, as I don't play her enough nor i spent enough time thinking about it, I like it however for its ability to both nerf her and make crop farming an actually interesting strategy (which is not, at this time, needless to say). As for Winona, she should be - among other things - the fix-it-all character, able to repair anything that is wearable : - 1 tape type recipe for clothing. - 1 tape type recipe for armor / weapons. Wicker is a fun character as she is rn... it's more important to focus on characters who clearly need more attention than others ... characters we don't usually play cuz there is no point really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Eh, we should focus on all of them. A potential character rebalance update should update every character at once. The OP characters like Wicker/Wolfgang being OP do damage to the game just by being in it; it isn't so much a problem that they're OP compared to the other characters, but that they're OP compared to the game itself. That's a good base point to start from with any suggestion: Would it be Fun? How will this uniquely impact gameplay? Will the game still be challenging, and satisfying to conquer? What is gained, and what is lost in return? Does this change fit the character's style? That's a good guide for any suggested changes to the game, not just characters.Although Klei should also consider this regarding some changes they've already made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said: Eh, we should focus on all of them. A potential character rebalance update should update every character at once. The OP characters like Wicker/Wolfgang being OP do damage to the game just by being in it; it isn't so much a problem that they're OP compared to the other characters, but that they're OP compared to the game itself. That's a good base point to start from with any suggestion: Would it be Fun? How will this uniquely impact gameplay? Will the game still be challenging, and satisfying to conquer? What is gained, and what is lost in return? Does this change fit the character's style? That's a good guide for any suggested changes to the game, not just characters.Although Klei should also consider this regarding some changes they've already made. Any concrete suggestions so we dont loose track on that? Tbh I think that if we ask so many changes we might end up with none... there are a lot of opinions on wicker and wolfgang... but they do have a clear playstyle and in imo that's where the fun lies. I'm ok with Wicker being a vegetarian... but then the stale food penalty should be taken out to balance out... I mean another aspect of looking at it should be... if it ain't broke don't fix it... Also remember that any lore affecting changes might be kinda hard to get cuz then it's also more work for the writers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said: we should focus on all of them. A potential character rebalance update should update every character at once. I did a thread on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, minespatch said: I did a thread on this. Miney to the rescue. Me (on another account I've now abandoned because Reasons) and others have been doing posts on this topic since DST's Beta. Personally, I've put a lot of time and actual research on game mechanics into it...quite a bit more than once. I'm not terribly inclined to do all of that yet again, because most of what applied to early in DST's development, or the time of The Great Nerfing, or when Winona was released still applies now. ...and, y'know, because in that time we have yet to see adjustments, so it seems like it'd be a waste of effort. Again. If you're curious about other people's suggestions, I suggest searching through Google rather than the Forum. The Forum's search function doesn't seem to bring up Archived posts; considering how long character reworks have been needed, most of the posts will have been archived. Anyway. I'll post something specific if a new idea comes up that interests me, like what happened recently with Winona on that other topic. I just posted that guide for suggestions because that's what I go by when trying to keep interesting game design in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, minespatch said: I did a thread on this. Again guys pls focus on giving concrete balance ideas instead of vaguely suggest this or that character needs a change cuz reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, lifetheuniverse said: Me (on another account I've now abandoned because Reasons) and others have been doing posts on this topic since DST's Beta. Personally, I've put a lot of time and actual research on game mechanics into it...quite a bit more than once. I'm not terribly inclined to do all of that yet again, because most of what applied to early in DST's development, or the time of The Great Nerfing, or when Winona was released still applies now. ...and, y'know, because in that time we have yet to see adjustments, so it seems like it'd be a waste of effort. Again. If you're curious about other people's suggestions, I suggest searching through Google rather than the Forum. The Forum's search function doesn't seem to bring up Archived posts; considering how long character reworks have been needed, most of the posts will have been archived. Anyway. I'll post something specific if a new idea comes up that interests me, like what happened recently with Winona on that other topic. 12 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: Again guys pls focus on giving concrete balance ideas instead of vaguely suggest this or that character needs a change Frankly, we'll have this same topic in a month, and people will be asking for specifics again then. Coming up with an update plan in the span of 10 minutes gives about the quality you'd expect from that. Actual balance and fun gameplay takes actual time and effort, which is part of why Klei hasn't done it. And I don't keep all this stuff ready in a document to copy-paste out of whenever someone asks. I have too many of those already. If someone responsible among the community decides to put together a long-term suggestion sheet in an organized, sensibly edited manor that we can link to whenever we have this discussion, that'd be lovely and I'd think about doing the necessary research yet again or looking through piles of forgotten topics when that time comes. But one of the issues with these topics is that the format of a forum discussion with automatic archiving enabled expects simple, quick answers, and this is a complex problem that requires a lot of iteration by people taking it seriously and putting the effort into it, for it to be done right. I'm not going to post some half-thought-out dream sequence concept better fit for a Workshop anime mod. We have enough of that type of suggestion available here already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Petit Citron said: As for Winona, she should be - among other things - the fix-it-all character, able to repair anything that is wearable : - 1 tape type recipe for clothing. - 1 tape type recipe for armor / weapons. Which percentage should a tape use repair for armor or weapons? Armor 20 % Weapons 30%? Should all weapons and armor have the same repair value? Or the higher the tier the less the repair value (which makes more sense to me tbh)? There are a lot of things to consider there... tbh i would love if winona gets another tool for repairing weapons and armor... even better ... a special fancy workbench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axxel Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 Items should get the adjective fixed that it cannot fixed for the second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 34 minutes ago, axxel said: Items should get the adjective fixed that it cannot fixed for the second time. more like "reinforced" or "repaired" I think... but yeap... that's a good idea.. I think it would be cool if the armor had some visible repaired patches here and there ... nothing awful.. but something telling u immediately it's was repaired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atkvin Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said: more like "reinforced" or "repaired" I think... but yeap... that's a good idea.. Maybe Trusty Tape could be usable on tools and armor and rather than repairing it simply halt the durability for a few uses? This could make her a useful ally to have around to preserve the team's armors, weapons and tools to conserve resources early-game, and maybe make her a more useful partner in things like early ruins or boss rushes without outright repairing things so there aren't troubling implications or restrictions put on it to prevent it being overpowered. Would be just as weak as it is now late-game when you have infinite resources, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petit Citron Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Atkvin said: Maybe Trusty Tape could be usable on tools and armor and rather than repairing it simply halt the durability for a few uses? This could make her a useful ally to have around to preserve the team's armors, weapons and tools to conserve resources early-game, and maybe make her a more useful partner in things like early ruins or boss rushes without outright repairing things so there aren't troubling implications or restrictions put on it to prevent it being overpowered. Would be just as weak as it is now late-game when you have infinite resources, though. Trusty tapes could be used to reinforce an item rather than repairing it, making it able to reach 125% of its durability. This would require being near her "special fancy workbench", whose I like the concept. I like the idea of affixes, making items only repairable / reinforceable once. I'm not fond of Winona working on magical items with tapes or hammers. Magical tab should be out of her reach, or at least it would require something like a magic tape, craftable with a shadow manipulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Petit Citron said: Trusty tapes could be used to reinforce an item rather than repairing it, making it able to reach 125% of its durability. This would require being near her "special fancy workbench", whose I like the concept. I like the idea of affixes, making items only repairable / reinforceable once. I'm not fond of Winona working on magical items with tapes or hammers. Magical tab should be out of her reach, or at least it would require something like a magic tape, craftable with a shadow manipulator. Tbh I don't think her tape should be able to repair armor and weapons. Maybe something else like wrench or welder, which them makes more sense to be used in a stationary workbench. Maybe for magical weapons she needs another magical tool craftable only in the pseudoscience station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maradyne Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I don't know what to think about Winona working on magical stuff. Her quotes point to her not seeing magical items in the same mysterious light as the other characters, as it seems the way they see magic is distorted by past experiences or emotions; she sees them almost purely as what they are visibly/by functions that she can directly see. She looks at things from a practical viewpoint. For that reason...would it make more sense for her to be able to just patch magical stuff up like it's nothing? She probably shouldn't be able to restore a 'charge', like anything relying on active Gems, due to not really being able to grasp how it works. But she seems to see Thulecite as just being a really nice material. So repairing an armor suit for instance would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 6 hours ago, lifetheuniverse said: I don't know what to think about Winona working on magical stuff. Her quotes point to her not seeing magical items in the same mysterious light as the other characters, as it seems the way they see magic is distorted by past experiences or emotions; she sees them almost purely as what they are visibly/by functions that she can directly see. She looks at things from a practical viewpoint. For that reason...would it make more sense for her to be able to just patch magical stuff up like it's nothing? She probably shouldn't be able to restore a 'charge', like anything relying on active Gems, due to not really being able to grasp how it works. But she seems to see Thulecite as just being a really nice material. So repairing an armor suit for instance would make sense. I meant magical weapons and armor... cuz that's the general idea we were going with. Basically 3 items from the Ancient Tab: Thulecite Crown, Thulecite Club and Thulecite Suit and 3 items from the magic tab: Bat Bat, Dark Sword, Dark Armor I agree it doesn't make much sense she handling staves (which tbh I never had in mind to begin with) and she doesn't trust nightmare fuel, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know what it is or that she cannot handle it. To make her discomfort a little more palpable, she could have some sanity penalty for every repair to Dark Sword and Dark Armor and some quotes about it... something like she get a headache from handling this stuff or something... but she def adores Thulecite: and she also loves the concept of the Bat Bat: and regarding if she could repair magic items... I suggested this before "Maybe for magical weapons she needs another magical tool craftable only in the pseudoscience station." Maybe she needs to upgrade her Fancy workbench with special magic tools for magic repairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Da LOLs Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 12:52 AM, FreyaMaluk said: but she def adores Thulecite: and she also loves the concept of the Bat Bat: and regarding if she could repair magic items... I suggested this before flexing your full roseatte skin i see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Da LOLs Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 in all seriousness i think that if insanity was made bad for even the most experienced players such as: nightmare creatures dont drop fuel, add a new nightmare that is undodgeible or something like that will buff and nerf characters indirectly Maxes, Willows, Wigfrids, and Wendys sanity gains will be more useful (Wendy: less from dark Wigfrid: murder Willow: burning Max:existing) (if add undodgible nightmare) bernie gains more use Wolf and wicker would have some less negligible downsides the sleeping mechanic might see more use also slow down or remove werebever sanity drain and add more reason to be it a call Abigail button to stop attacking monsters Willow gains fire immunity to things next to her (ie: everything but getting set on fire with torch so she isnt op in pvp but still takes no damage otherwise) allowing for her to hold burning again well what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreyaMaluk Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 10 hours ago, 4 Da LOLs said: in all seriousness i think that if insanity was made bad for even the most experienced players such as: nightmare creatures dont drop fuel, add a new nightmare that is undodgeible or something like that will buff and nerf characters indirectly Maxes, Willows, Wigfrids, and Wendys sanity gains will be more useful (Wendy: less from dark Wigfrid: murder Willow: burning Max:existing) (if add undodgible nightmare) bernie gains more use Wolf and wicker would have some less negligible downsides the sleeping mechanic might see more use also slow down or remove werebever sanity drain and add more reason to be it a call Abigail button to stop attacking monsters Willow gains fire immunity to things next to her (ie: everything but getting set on fire with torch so she isnt op in pvp but still takes no damage otherwise) allowing for her to hold burning again well what do you think? I don't think undodgeable nightmares are a good idea cuz they would make farming for nightmare fuel a... well... a nightmare (pun intended,) specially in the early days. The premise of the game is that everything can be dodge and dealt with if you practice enough times and learn kitting patterns. Doesn't make any sense IMO. That change would make Woddie even more tedious than ever before... if that's actually even possible *shivers* what do you mean by "Wigfrid murder? do you think Wig needs more sanity gain from hit.. really?? (btw she doesn't gain sanity from kill in dst,. but from hits) and "Wendy: less from dark? Your wording is a bit confusing.. Pls elaborate. Same goes for Willow burning.. I don't really get this "Willow gains fire immunity to things next to her (ie: everything but getting set on fire with torch so she isnt op in pvp but still takes no damage otherwise)" --- Willow can set things on fire with her lighter or a fire staff ... or a simple twig on fire spreading fire to other things.. I don't understand your point there with the fire proximity and fire immunity tbh when there are so many things you can do to spread fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Da LOLs Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said: what do you mean by "Wigfrid murder? do you think Wig needs more sanity gain from hit.. really?? (btw she doesn't gain sanity from kill in dst,. but from hits) and "Wendy: less from dark? Your wording is a bit confusing.. Pls elaborate. Same goes for Willow burning.. what i mean is if insanity is made a bad thing those abilitys will become more useful as a result like how Willow gains sanity form burning things Wigfrids sanity gain on hit Wendys less drained from darkness and Maxes natural sanity gain will become useful as in the hypothetical change of making insanity a bad thing somehow so not actually changing the stats themselves just making the world kinda... conform to them to complement them sorry im really bad at wording so i was saying that in the hypothetical change in which insanity would be nerfed so its a thing that you dont want even as an experienced player im saying those already implemented characteristics would be more useful in that scenario hylighting how normally weak characteristics will become more useful if that were to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torauma Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 If maxwell where to have a chance for a buff I think the only thing I would ever want for him is to have shadow duelists have forge targeting ai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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