Why I think plants is ridiculous

[NanoD]

I guess many have try to cool down plants or heat them up. Well basic fact is that they start at 19.8C and the mass is 400 kg and because they have made of genetic ooze they have 3.47 specifik heat capacity. So they are really hard to change temp. Almost as hard as water to change temp. 

You might say it is ok. But here is the interesting thing most buildings mass when calculated how much heat they can take are divided by 5 or 10. But not plants. And not only that if they are replanted they will go back to 19.8C. Because I think it is ridiculous made this set up to cool hot water. 

Starting with 94C water.

Ends with 27.5C of 2000kg of water

[Townkill]

Plant temperature doesn't matter for harvest rating, air temperature does.. and regulating air temperature is fairly easy regardless of the plants temperature

[NanoD]

Try to get ideal temperatur for sleet wheat and come back and say it is easy.

[Risu]

Don't worry about ideal temperature for Sleet Wheat. You want excellent yield? Build 2 more planters.
 

[NanoD]

That is not the point. The point is that developer wants you to achieve it but they have made it ridiculous hard to do it. And I know I can just and keep it under 5C and it is easy to achieve. And you made my point, there is no reason to achieve the optimal temp because it is to hard to do it and to little reward in it. 

[marcjhune22]

8 minutes ago, NanoD said:

Try to get ideal temperatur for sleet wheat and come back and say it is easy.

That is fairly easy, but i will take a lot of time. I think your plants are stifled because of the air pressure. I will post a screenshot when i get it to work

[Kasuha]

16 minutes ago, NanoD said:

Well basic fact is that they start at 19.8C and the mass is 400 kg and because they have made of genetic ooze they have 3.47 specifik heat capacity.

I tried to measure that on pincha peppers. Had a new plant in farm at ideal temperature and over 1923 seconds game clock it gained 0.7 C. Assuming its reported parameters are correct, it gained 400000 * 0.7 * 3.47 = 971.6 kJ which over 1923 seconds is about 505 W of heat consumption. That's complete nonsense, a single plant would have to be heated up with 6 space heaters while in practice one space heater can handle five plants a 17% uptime. My conclusion is that effective thermal mass of plants is 100 times lower, i.e. 4 kg. It still means 3-5 W of heat consumed by each plant.

 

[Kasuha]

However if people start to mass abuse plants to cool water, that might convince devs to go and fix the issue 

[marcjhune22]

11 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

However if people start to mass abuse plants to cool water, that might convince devs to go and fix the issue 

that really is something the devs should look at

[NanoD]

Kausha  I did some test. I and see that the plants are 400 kg. Easy way is to put 400kg of hydrogen and then 1 plant in it. if it is only 4 kg of plant, then you shouldn't see much of temp change on the hydrogen right.

Here is the result Plant heated up 19.8 to 21.1 = 1.3C and hydrogen (400kg) 29.8 - 28.1 = 1.7 C of change

[NanoD]

Well you can use it to keep your base temperate, you can have bristle blossom planted around your base and it will keep the temperature at a nice temp. and when the blossom is to hot you just replant it

[Kasuha]

17 minutes ago, NanoD said:

Kausha  I did some test. I and see that the plants are 400 kg. Easy way is to put 400kg of hydrogen and then 1 plant in it. if it is only 4 kg of plant, then you shouldn't see much of temp change on the hydrogen right.

Here is the result Plant heated up 19.8 to 21.1 = 1.3C and hydrogen (400kg) 29.8 - 28.1 = 1.7 C of change

You're right. The mass matches in this context. That makes me wonder where I made a mistake then.

[NanoD]

Well in the end I think the plants mass should be 40kg sounds resonable. 

Hmm.. maybe the space heater is more efficient than they say. 

[NanoD]

Water trial is at the end after puting out 12 000 kg of water the water temp out is 36 C. And after that you can replant the sleet wheat and make another 12 000 kg nice water  

But when you can cool down water as it is now there is no need, my water did end 24-25C warm because how it works right now. yepp cooler than the average temp of the water of first 2 000 kg of water

[Kasuha]

29 minutes ago, NanoD said:

Hmm.. maybe the space heater is more efficient than they say. 

Yeah that seems to be the case. My calculations say it gives 18 kW rather than 90 W

Check my math: 25 kg wire, 400 kg heater, and 1600 kg of hydrogen heated up by 2 C in 428 s.

Hydrogen: 2 * 2.4 * 1600000 = 7680000 J

Heater + wire 2 * 0.15 * 425000 = 127500 J

Heater and wire are buildings, their thermal mass is reduced by a factor of 5, i.e. 25500 J

Total 7705500 J over 428 s = 18003 J/s = 18 kW

 

[NanoD]

52 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Yeah that seems to be the case. My calculations say it gives 18 kW rather than 90 W

Check my math: 25 kg wire, 400 kg heater, and 1600 kg of hydrogen heated up by 2 C in 428 s.

Hydrogen: 2 * 2.4 * 1600000 = 7680000 J

Heater + wire 2 * 0.15 * 425000 = 127500 J

Heater and wire are buildings, their thermal mass is reduced by a factor of 5, i.e. 25500 J

Total 7705500 J over 428 s = 18003 J/s = 18 kW

 

Yeah looks correct to me. 

[Whispershade]

This is timely for me as I was coming to look to see if there was a way to affect crop starting temp as I struggle with chilling my sleet wheat farm. I was astonished at how much of a difference a few plants not being planted affected the return temp of my hydrogen cooling pipe.

I was also curious if anyone had used peppernut farms to cool battery banks or geysers. I put a peppernut farm over a geyser but it was a rather clumsy approach to getting them into ideal temp range without energy consumption that I've since added space heaters.

I also thought about just directly pumping an insolating gas in to regulators to get the external temp right while limiting conductivity with the 400kg x n of genetic ooze. Maybe liquid CO2 with some space heaters? Though I doubt I have the design control skills to not end up with dry ice. Maybe storage containers of frozen CO2?

[Risu]

2 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

I was also curious if anyone had used peppernut farms to cool battery banks or geysers. I put a peppernut farm over a geyser but it was a rather clumsy approach to getting them into ideal temp range without energy consumption that I've since added space heaters.

Peppernuts are not ideal for temperature cheating. They last 65 cycles.
What breaks the other plants is the constant replanting which resets the temperature.
 

[The Flying Fox]

Speaking of Peppernuts, I find it odd that people are using space heaters to keep them at the ideal temps.  They soak up lots of space and power although I will admit they're easier to setup and get the right temps fairly quickly.  But.. but the tepidizer is soooo much more efficient at heating.  

 

 

Air temps aren't quite there yet, but will be.  I know it will.  Originally, I was actually heating the polluted water that I was feeding the plants and I was getting ideal temps across the board, and this is all with granite piping too.  Even then, it was still quite efficient.  But then, I had an eureka moment, 'Why not separate the heating and the feeding?'  Now that tepidizer barely runs at all.

[Kasuha]

20 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

Speaking of Peppernuts, I find it odd that people are using space heaters to keep them at the ideal temps.  They soak up lots of space and power although I will admit they're easier to setup and get the right temps fairly quickly.  But.. but the tepidizer is soooo much more efficient at heating.  

You have a point. Space Heater declares 90 W of heating for 120 W of power, while tepidizer declares 20320 W of heating for 960 W of power. That makes it almost 30 times more efficient in heating with regards to power consumption.

I still like space heaters. They're kind of instant action, I don't have to wait too long for the room to heat up. After taking a dive into heat conduction in ONI gases and rearranging my pincha pepper farm, there are no plants outside of ideal temperature range anymore.

 

 

[The Flying Fox]

Oh yeah, I can certainly understand using them in favor to the tepidizer.  The space heaters certainly have their place for their ease of use.

 

This does remind me when I was originally starting my Peppernut farm.  I too had the idea of sticking them in a room with a steam geyser to heat them, but found, oddly enough, the air temperatures dropped after putting the plants in and I had to stick in a space heat to warm them up.  (I was trying to get more seeds to make an actual farm)  And then, after removing them, I do recall the room warming up again.  It could also have been because I was drawing more water from the geyser, but this partially explains it.

 

Another thing I was going to try for my Peppernut farm that could be useful.  My sleet wheat farm is just below my peppernut farm.  My sleet wheat farm is already fairly cool with a bunch of wheezeworts, but why not install some thermo regulators in my peppernut farm, to further help cool my sleet wheat farm?  Since they're just basically heat pumps, they'll be moving the heat from where I don't want it, to where I do want it.

[Nidhoggur]

On 19 Июнь 2017 г. at 3:49 PM, Kasuha said:

However if people start to mass abuse plants to cool water, that might convince devs to go and fix the issue 

Imagine, with all this leaf surface, plants are an excellent radiator in fact
But serioulsy though, it should probably be fixed. How does a plant weigh 400 kg anyway??

[Gnu89]

I was trying to build the perfect berry farm, with as little maintenance possible, that being in planter boxes at ideal temp and pressure. Since fertilizer always come out and 45 degrees regardless of temperature of source a material, i decided to stop using it since it kept adding energy to the system making harder to keep ideal temperature. After finally makinga  sofisticated cooling system that pumps in water at -1 degrees in granite pipes like a big radiator i noticed that temperatures kept rising. Then i noticed that the temperature of plants was pretty high. So i decided to cool down my seeds to 0 degrees before planting. Doesnt matter comes in at 20 degrees when planted anyway. So.... Theres Two main issues here for me.

(1), Fertilizer, when created always coms out at 45 degrees C regardless of temperature of polluted dirt(Compost) or polluted water(Fertlizer machine thing).

 

(2), Plants, when planted starts at 20 degrees C regardless of the temperature of the Seed, Plantbox/farm, atmosphere.

So This either creates energy from nowhere or destroys energy.

In a game like this where the second law of thermodynamics is SO central and important, and one of the most enjoyable things is when you setup a smart system to keep the energy exchange perfect, this is really breaking the immersion. its fairly easy to get food in this game, so its not an issue about creating a colony that can survive, but more about the imerson and feeling of the game.

Also 400kg plants seem... ridiculous.

This need to be fixed.

I'll still love this game to pieces tho  I love <3 Klei <3 for making  this game.

 

A concerned and loving fan.

Gnu