Is this a bug?

[Roy Young]

My friend says a water reservoir like this can store as much water as you want, because the grid of gas will always be there so the  outfall will never be submersed, and the doors around seem to have unlimited pressure tolerance.

[BlueLance]

I think this worked in an older patch, but they fixed over pressurisation of geysers etc, so chances are this is no longer a valid exploit. The doors are also known for having no ill effects under pressure.

[Nidhoggur]

I think the doors should be fixed to break under pressure, same as any other tiles.

[Kasuha]

8 minutes ago, Nidhoggur said:

I think the doors should be fixed to break under pressure, same as any other tiles.

Doors probably should be fixed but if you enclose the room in three layers of walls it becomes unbreakable anyway.

I think the water pressure should be able to break walls/doors/terrain when it exceeds certain limit. That limit should be set high enough that a water column spanning the whole height of the map won't do it, but it should happen when you exceed that, or let's say two times of that value.

[Masterpintsman]

24 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

That limit should be set high enough that a water column spanning the whole height of the map won't do it

With that limit the feature sounds pointless. Better would be to fix the flaws in the simulation that enable endless stacking.

[Kasuha]

1 minute ago, Masterpintsman said:

With that limit the feature sounds pointless. Better would be to fix the flaws in the simulation that enable endless stacking.

That's what my idea is about. How exactly would you fix it otherwise?

Blocking the vent seems obvious, but you'd have to detect gas pressure over that vent (possible) and somehow achieve that pressure in the bubble without increasing mass of the gas in it (serious revamp of physics engine).

Or you need to destroy that bubble when the water pressure is sufficiently high. Possible too but the question is what water pressure would warrant that.

If neither of the above, you either need the pressurized water to destroy walls of its container, which is what I propose, or start destroying the water.

[The Flying Fox]

Another idea to consider.  Perhaps also heat could be used?

 

Typically, when you put something under pressure/compress it, it heats up right?  So, if that pocket of air, or the water, got too hot, it would then just melt the vent.. the pump.. the valve, etc.  This could also maybe solve being able to glitch the gas vents into making tiny over-pressurized gas chambers.

 

Sure, you could glitch them to trick the game into letting you pour 1000Kgs of gas in there, but its not going to matter once the chamber heats up enormously and melts the vent!  

[vonVile]

10 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Doors probably should be fixed but if you enclose the room in three layers of walls it becomes unbreakable anyway.

I think the water pressure should be able to break walls/doors/terrain when it exceeds certain limit. That limit should be set high enough that a water column spanning the whole height of the map won't do it, but it should happen when you exceed that, or let's say two times of that value.

It should be the same water pressure that is able to crack Sandstone tiles when water falls on them. I don't know what that amount is, but that would be a good starting base point.

In my current build I would have been royally screwed if this was currently in effect. I misjudged the Polluted Water pressure in the swamp biome and the wall of slime and algae broke away and flooded an area I had below it. if I didn't have airlock there my whole base would have been flooded. That airlock wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Nidhoggur]

13 hours ago, Kasuha said:

Blocking the vent seems obvious, but you'd have to detect gas pressure over that vent (possible) and somehow achieve that pressure in the bubble without increasing mass of the gas in it (serious revamp of physics engine).

 

Why not just check the tiles around the vent, too? So that if the vent is surrounded by walls or liqud, it can go overpressure, even if the vent tile itself is not

[Kasuha]

4 hours ago, Nidhoggur said:

Why not just check the tiles around the vent, too? So that if the vent is surrounded by walls or liqud, it can go overpressure, even if the vent tile itself is not

You can work around that as well. Have a hydrogen tile over the vent, below it an oxygen tile, below it a natural gas tile, below it a chlorine tile, below it a carbon dioxide tile, and below that pressurized water. How far should the vent go with its checking?

[Risu]

All they have to do to fix that is get rid of the falling liquid entity and just dump the packet at the vent.
It works for the gas packets. Because the falling liquid entity has special behavior it doesn't matter what is blocking the vent or how much is there. It just needs to collide with the floor below the vent where it settles out from there.

Using that sollution, eventually the gas packet will get displaced under the liquid and stay as a bubble, or get smashed out of existence.

 

[Kasuha]

4 minutes ago, Risu said:

All they have to do to fix that is get rid of the falling liquid entity and just dump the packet at the vent.
It works for the gas packets. Because the falling liquid entity has special behavior it doesn't matter what is blocking the vent or how much is there. It just needs to collide with the floor below the vent where it settles out from there.

Using that sollution, eventually the gas packet will get displaced under the liquid and stay as a bubble, or get smashed out of existence.

That opens the door to another exploit: destroying gases by dropping liquids over them.

[Risu]

11 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

That opens the door to another exploit: destroying gases by dropping liquids over them.

Assuming that mass loss still exists from element interactions.

A solution for the gas vent being blocked by water is to have the gas vent displace the element blocking the vent with a vacuum element. Continue this until a vacuum tile succeeds in formation over the vent where it can then be replaced with the gas waiting in the vent.

Remember that the simulator ticks 4 times a second. You might not even see that occur.

This prevents mass loss and just wastes time if it isn't capable of displacing the block.
 

[Nidhoggur]

5 hours ago, Kasuha said:

You can work around that as well. Have a hydrogen tile over the vent, below it an oxygen tile, below it a natural gas tile, below it a chlorine tile, below it a carbon dioxide tile, and below that pressurized water. How far should the vent go with its checking?

That is true, albeit somewhat more hard to pull off. But then, you can probably work around anything, if you know exactly how the game code works.
Then, I imagine water tiles that contain more than X kg, should just break through tiles.

I would agree that the pressure like in real life would be too unrealistic to simulate, with the current physics engine. At some point, the pumps should be unable to pump through, but that's not how the pipes work at the moment.

I've seen a topic here somewhere about gravity pumping and pressure pumping (when the pressure between 2 outputs of the pipe should just equalize without a pump). This is unlikely to be implemented, of course, but it would automatically solve the endless stacking issue.

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Risu said:

A solution for the gas vent being blocked by water is to have the gas vent displace the element blocking the vent with a vacuum element. Continue this until a vacuum tile succeeds in formation over the vent where it can then be replaced with the gas waiting in the vent.

Okay, that's a good idea.

Simplest solution for gas vent under water is that such vent is blocked. Period. Similar thing for when there's liquid over gas release tile of electrolyzer or any other building that releases gases. But when the vent is in gas and it's different gas than it's going to release, then your approach could be perhaps used, if the physics engine can handle the situation correctly. My idea is a single layer of ~1 kg CO2 per tile above the floor with the vent in it and with overpressure of oxygen above. The engine would have to disrupt the CO2 layer and not let it join again over the vent, then it could work. But I'm afraid it's not how the gas engine works right now.

Liquid vent in gas might work with the vacuum displacement too. It has some borderline cases where players may complain or become confused about the vent getting blocked "for no reason".

 

Edit: I still think, though, that simple destruction of walls of the container under sufficient pressure is way simpler approach. Both gases and liquids could have a pressure under which they'll "dig/deconstruct" the first layer of material around them to release the pressure. 

[Nidhoggur]

7 hours ago, Risu said:

A solution for the gas vent being blocked by water is to have the gas vent displace the element blocking the vent with a vacuum element. Continue this until a vacuum tile succeeds in formation over the vent where it can then be replaced with the gas waiting in the vent.

Why do you need a vacuum element for this? Just displace the element blocking the vent with the gas that is venting, if that's what the final result is.

[Risu]

43 minutes ago, Nidhoggur said:

Why do you need a vacuum element for this? Just displace the element blocking the vent with the gas that is venting, if that's what the final result is.

The simulator can either add mass, or replace and displace mass. Not a good idea to replace what you're trying to vent.
 

[Nidhoggur]

22 minutes ago, Risu said:

The simulator can either add mass, or replace and displace mass. Not a good idea to replace what you're trying to vent.
 

Sorry, still don't get you. Why do you need a vacuum as a middle man?

You say - first, displace the element blocking the vent with a vacuum element. And then replace vacuum with the gas waiting in the vent.

How is it different from displacing the element blocking the vent directly with the gas from the pipe?

[Risu]

After some testing it seems the game already does this. But it does it strangely.

When gas is vented the water just disappears?

Then it returns next game tick.

BUT if you use DebugSimTick the simulator can settle the gas out before the water comes back.

If you unpause, the water comes back and lets the vent continue.