Thoughts on sanity spenders?

[Quyzbuk]

It has been quite some time since poor OP Wes was nerfed to just somewhat OP status, only being able to create his balloons of mass destruction when he has enough sanity, and this got me wondering how this would affect the other two characters that spend sanity to use their special skills and what people would think of them if they had the same limitations. Yes I am of course referring to Wendy and Wickerbottom summoning abigail and reading books respectively (Maxwell too for the latter). This isn't so much about nerfs as it is about making sanity a bit more valuable to those undeterred by whatever number theirs is currently at.

 

If those abilities were changed as such, what would your opinion be? Would you want to play them more or less? Would you want some kind of middle ground (sanity =/= 0 to use) instead? Or should things be left as they are?

 

Or how about the larger scale, applying this to items all characters can use, making it only possible if you have the proper amount of sanity (or a sanity that is not zero) for things such as your lazy explorers, lazy deserters (recalling via desert stones), and even wormholes?

 

Myself, I wouldn't be too affected in particular since I play Wes and Maxwell when I'm not bumbling about, but when I played Wickerbottom and farmed Krampus Sacks on public servers, I would easily push myself to -1000 sanity and beyond if it were possible, so that would've slowed that down for sure, and would certainly make me designate a spot, or at least put more effort into holding sanity restoring foods and/or clothing in my inventory to maintain the convenience of being able to use wormholes and such. I think it would force the player to plan a bit more, rather than just being a new nuisance to them, and would increase the value of such knowledge for pros/newbies alike.

 

It'd certainly be an interesting experiment if nothing else.

[GiddyGuy]

I'd say if these limitations were implemented it wouldn't make much of a difference as you'd just have to kill 2 shadows and continue doing w/e it is you might be doing, might be a little harder for Wendy however.

[Quyzbuk]

15 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

I'd say if these limitations were implemented it wouldn't make much of a difference as you'd just have to kill 2 shadows and continue doing w/e it is you might be doing, might be a little harder for Wendy however.

There's quite a few things that could happen / be happening during that though, it wouldn't be as cut and dry necessarily. I'm sure you've had those long droughts where a shadow creature just won't spawn for a while, where you're extremely wounded or hungry and need to get somewhere else fast, or have an impending attack and are caught out far from a safe area (to name a few).

[MondayNight]

Hey, look: another "let's make the game harder" thread!

 

Think about the vast majority of players going insane 3 days after spawn and dying by first appeared shadow before proposing such things. I get it, the 0.000x % of total player base (aka veteran good players) wants more challenging mechanics, setup and whatnot; but is it a must to try impose those changes on general populus? Wes is weak (the "hard mode" so-to-say), I get it, we get it. But must we make other characters similarly weak? Wicker can't sleep, if it doesn't have enough sanity food or/and cannot fight proper, after reading "On Tentacles" even once (maybe out of curiosity and with already precarious sanity) will be dead in the hands of probably most than 60-70% of all player base. And if I had 1 dollar for each Woodie killed by shadows after going beaver first or second day via chopping trees bonanza... you get where I'm going. Always think about the majority when proposing changes - how would those impact most players.

Plus, if you want hard/more challenging game, set all things in world to few and/or use nightmare-setup mods, perpetual night etc: you for certain will have harder time (did so myself, all stuff in world set on few, really long seasons playing Wig and was/is a really fun experience).

[Quyzbuk]

1 hour ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

Hey, look: another "let's make the game harder" thread!

No, you definitely misunderstood the intent of this discussion, the main point was for sanity spending abilities and whether they should have the same restrictions Wes faces when it comes to special abilities such as his to create balloons. I expanded the focus toward the end for other applications and looking at the bigger picture, but the topic is sanity spenders, not necessarily making it more difficult. I specifically separated those points in the main post for that very reason.

 

And for the record I already do host perma-night world(s) and non-default ones with amped up challenges. I never do pure default when I host.

 

Please, before you go making wild assumptions, you should really look at someone's posting history, particularly mine. I'm not new, an egomaniac, nor some young kid.

[MondayNight]

Not really. Your main point is clear as day: should other characters have 0-sanity restrictions on their sanity-dependent abilities like Wes has or not. Basically your whole original post boils down to this question: "how this would affect the other two characters that spend sanity to use their special skills and what people would think of them if they had the same limitations"; and the answer to that (judging from how many people play Wes atm) applied to Wicker, Maxwell or Wendy would most likely be ..much less. They would be played much less compared to present because, again, what you propose is a nerf, thus making game harder. Again: simple as that, no assumptions beside parallels, not ignoring the essential - aka nerfing characters. You can dress it nicely in "isn't so much about nerfs as it is about making sanity a bit more valuable", but a nerf is a nerf and it makes game harder by definition.

 

Now for personal answers: yes, I would probably play less a nerfed character, knowing "just how good" was before said nerf (as I even gave up entirely on games in past that got some fields nerfed, practically erasing the fun element for me in an otherwise "Meh!" experience; well I'm not such a dedicated gamer in general to begin with).

[brbrmensch]

yeah, and wx can't heal or charge via lightning with 0 sanity, seems legit: with 300 sanity first 9 strikes from end is high charge him, 10th charges with 1\11 power and rest 10 kill him deal 100-150 damage

 

[Donke60]

Would this just be items that cost sanity to use or sanity drain as well?

[Lumina]

4 hours ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

They would be played much less compared to present because, again, what you propose is a nerf, thus making game harder.

You just said that a lot of players can't manage having less sanity and shadow appearing.

 

8 hours ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

 

Think about the vast majority of players going insane 3 days after spawn and dying by first appeared shadow

 

Ok, so let me know how something that will impact players with 0 sanity will make the game harder for players that are unable to reach this amount, exactly ?
Because at the moment, as wickerbottom, sometimes i use the tentacle book multiples times, don't care if i'm at 0 sanity, use it still, and after that, i use way to recover my sanity (mushrooms). I spare a lot of sanity this way, since even at 0 i can use the book without problems.

 

So let's say that you change this. People at 0 sanity will not be able to use the book anymore. For the players you spoke about, the one in danger with one shadow, this will change nothing. For most players, using the book when they are high in sanity, this will change nothing. For players using book when they have 0 sanity, this will remove the possibility to do so.

 

So it could be a very good change since it will change nothing for most players, and only for players that are not exactly exploiting the game, but still optimizing a little too easily the fact that you can use as much book as you want when you are at 0 sanity without real downside (because one more use, one less use, no real difference).

 

I'm not saying this change should happen, but it will not make game harder for most players. I'm not even sure it will make the game harder, because before reaching 0 sanity, you already have some use of books.

So, for books, yes, i would like this change.

 

Not sure for abigail, because this could lead to a death.

 

Totally no for things like wormhole, with a little lack of luck you could be stuck in a small island with no way to leave or something similar.

 

[Quyzbuk]

@Donke60

Sanity spenders only, the sword and armor are drains. 

 

@xxVERSUSxy

There are quite a few better ways to go about simply discussing something instead of pretending to white knight for noobs. I say pretending because your first post was definitely not an off-the-cuff thing, you've been brooding on that for quite some time I'm willing to bet and decided to release it on the first post that even seemed like someone being elitist. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a copy+paste job pre-written. 

I'd highly suggest you read Lumina's reponse above here and take note of how they methodically thought about this and how to actually talk to someone.

Less easy does NOT have to mean More hard

[Donke60]

27 minutes ago, Quyzbuk said:

@Donke60

Sanity spenders only, the sword and armor are drains. 

Then I would be fine with it though I do wish there was a steeper penalty going to 0 Sanity you don't hit that very often unless you want to 

[Starlogy]

Honestly, that would be a fair Wickerbottom nerf: Remove her ability to spam books at 0 sanity.

It would certainly make her more balanced.

[minespatch]

4 hours ago, StarmanNess said:

Honestly, that would be a fair Wickerbottom nerf: Remove her ability to spam books at 0 sanity.

I think you and a few others really want me to play her for her playable strengths. Balancing her book ability would really help give me a challenge if I ever get to play her.

[Lumina]

It would not be a big nerf, and i'm sure something else to balance her would be welcome, but it would be a step in the right direction at least.

[MondayNight]

Good points made, @Lumina, but I have one amendment to all that and regards the moment of shadows spawn: do more shadows spawn when one passes up/down the 15% sanity threshold or not? (I'm considering myself a-bit-more-than-mediocre veteran player, contrary to what @Quyzbuk writes about elitism, so I don't know these in-depth things) If more shadow creatures spawn in that case, then my points remain; otherwise they fall completely.

Plus, and I didn't saw this pointed out: in case of Wes's balloons if the 0-sanity interdiction wasn't in place, one could have mass-spammed them on map and that would amount to lag on weak servers same manner as with bees or frog rain - as it stands to reason same standard should be applied to him, Wicker and other characters with sanity-dependent skills. Or with Wicker one cannot mass-spam tentacles or birds so easily, in compact spaces and piled close as Wes's ballons - just a thought.

 

PS: It would have been nice, @Quyzbuk, if I were that organized even if you write it in a derogatory manner; and that "white knight" thing made me smile, lol-bertarian style

[NeddoFreddo]

11 hours ago, StarmanNess said:

Honestly, that would be a fair Wickerbottom nerf: Remove her ability to spam books at 0 sanity.

It would certainly make her more balanced.

That would be a MASSIVE nerf, at least to me anyway. A fair chunk of the Wickerbottom fun is being insane all the time and using books like a madman. The books actually requiring sanity to use would definitely make her a lot more underpowered, plus gaining sanity is a pain, because you have to wait ages with a tam/tophat, or make heaps of taffy or pumpkin cookies, things which you could be using the honey for much better crockpot foods, like honey ham.
^^ Btw, all this is an opinion, but personally it'd kinda suck to see this added.

[Lumina]

Do you play with or without caves ? Without efforts, last time, i gathered like 50 blue mushrooms, only picking mushrooms, no cutting tree. Sure, i don't always pick 50 of them, but in one classic night, having 20 of them isn't that uncommon.

 

Also, even with this, i still think she will be a very powerful character, this playstyle is very specific, not everyone is using it. And honestly, having to make some specifics things to be able to use books like a madman seems pretty normal for me. Having to make some more beebox or planter seems reasonnable if you want to spam books.

[Quyzbuk]

@NeddoFreddo

Do take note, he said at 0 sanity (the middle road from my OP) and not requires the actual sanity cost of the book, so 1 sanity = good2go.