Cooling efficiency and working temperature of wheezeworts?

[Momotall]

What is the cooling efficiency of a wheezewort?(For example a hydro fan has a Heat -80W.)

Does it change as the temperature change?

Does it change as the gas type around it change(due to different specific heat capacities)?

[Masterpintsman]

Wheezeworth seem to be unable to liquify the gas they're in, this sets a lower boundry for the temperature.

They also have been nerfd compared to before, so it's more 'meh'. In case you want to do an experiment: setup a debug map where you plant several of them in identical bigger rooms, fill with different kinds of gas and let the sim run. In cas you want to know how much W they consume you could make some rooms with identical gas and add light bulbs to it (each makes 5W) to find how much they can counter.

[Kasuha]

I ran an experiment in debug mode to check effectiveness of Wheezeworts in different gases. The results are strange, and I welcome anyone who will do similar experiment to compare their results with mine.

I tested Oxygen, Polluted Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, Chlorine, Hydrogen and Natural Gas. Each wheezewort was enclosed in 3x4 abyssalite chamber with 2000 g of gas at 320 K (46.8 C) per tile. They all started in vacuum, then I spawned the gases at the same time. I let it run for some time, then destroyed the wheezeworts and let the temperature settle. Results:

In order by temperature decrease (in degrees C):

Natural Gas     59.5
Carbon Dioxide  55.7
Chlorine        54.7
Polluted Oxygen 49.7
Oxygen          49.7
Hydrogen        40.1

In order of removed heat (in relative units, oxygen = 1.00)

Natural Gas     2.60
Hydrogen        1.93
Polluted Oxygen 1.00
Oxygen          1.00
Carbon Dioxide  0.94
Chlorine        0.52

What I find peculiar is that neither table is in order of heat capacity of the material.

But another thing I found out after I removed the Wheezeworts, in three chambers there was 750 g of gas missing, in other three there was 500 g of gas missing. Specifically Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and Chlorine were missing 750 g and the remaining three were missing 500 g. It may be the portion the wheezewort is processing. It shouldn't affect the results as oxygen and polluted oxygen have almost exactly the same results even though each was missing different amount.

[caffeinated21]

It'd be interesting to test this with different gas concentrations. My intuition is that the cooling is more effective at higher pressure.

[Masterpintsman]

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

then destroyed the wheezeworts

How did you destroy them? Uproot should have left any gas currently in the plant as a bottle...

 

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

In order of removed heat (in relative units, oxygen = 1.00)

Could you elaborate on that? I don't get what you mean by 'relative units', especially in context to the other table.

 

1 hour ago, caffeinated21 said:

My intuition is that the cooling is more effective at higher pressure.

2000g/tile is the upper level of what you can archive without massive bug exploiting (overpressured vents), trickery (deconstructing buildings that drop stashed gasses as a bottle) or contraptions of high (evaporating LOX) and low(slime farm) technology level in the game.

[Kasuha]

27 minutes ago, Masterpintsman said:

How did you destroy them? Uproot should have left any gas currently in the plant as a bottle...

Uproot in debug mode. I did not notice any bottle on the ground afterwards.

28 minutes ago, Masterpintsman said:

Could you elaborate on that? I don't get what you mean by 'relative units', especially in context to the other table.

I did not want to recalculate it to all gas in the chamber so I took the temperature difference and multiplied it by the thermal capacity of the gas. That'd give amount of lost J per kg. That produced some unfriendly numbers so I divided it all by the result for oxygen to get heat removal effectiveness.

[caffeinated21]

1 hour ago, Masterpintsman said:

2000g/tile is the upper level of what you can archive without massive bug exploiting (overpressured vents), trickery (deconstructing buildings that drop stashed gasses as a bottle) or contraptions of high (evaporating LOX) and low(slime farm) technology level in the game.

The point was that the amount of energy removed would likely be lower at lower pressures...

1 hour ago, Masterpintsman said:

 

[Momotall]

6 hours ago, Kasuha said:

But another thing I found out after I removed the Wheezeworts, in three chambers there was 750 g of gas missing, in other three there was 500 g of gas missing. Specifically Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and Chlorine were missing 750 g and the remaining three were missing 500 g. It may be the portion the wheezewort is processing. It shouldn't affect the results as oxygen and polluted oxygen have almost exactly the same results even though each was missing different amount.

Thanks for your experiment. But I still have some questions about it.

1.Did you use an abyssalite flower vase or you just moved the wheezewort by using alt+Q command to the ground? If you used a flower vase that is not made of abyssalite, its temperature will change thus absorb or release heat. 50Kg of mineral can make a big difference on the heat compared to 3x4x2=24Kg gas thus greatly affect the proportion of gas temperature change.

2.Did you notice if the wheezewort had a temperature change before you uproot them? Each wheezewort is made of 400Kg of genetic ooze that has a specific heat capacity of 3.47J/(g*K)(larger than any gas in room temperature). A little change in wheezewort's temperature can change the total heat in the gas a lot.

I think the missing gas thing implies that wheezewort is cooling in a cycle that it absorbs gas into them, lowers the temperature of the gas and then emits the cooled gas. That's quite useful in finding the true cooling efficiency.

5 hours ago, Masterpintsman said:

2000g/tile is the upper level of what you can archive without massive bug exploiting (overpressured vents), trickery (deconstructing buildings that drop stashed gasses as a bottle) or contraptions of high (evaporating LOX) and low(slime farm) technology level in the game.

If it is true that the efficiency is larger as the pressure goes high, then it's necessary to make a high gas pressure enviornment for the wheezeworts in order to remove more heat. Even if you dont want to using a over pressure bug, you can achieve this by evaporating liquified gas(use cooled hydrogen to liquify other gasses).  I have a polluted oxygen condensation tower in my colony and a stock of liquid oxygen.

[QuantumPion]

Wheezeworts definitely destroy gas. Not sure if it is a bug or not. In my last base, I managed to collect 30 wheezeworts intended for a geyser cooler. Water flowed through wolframite pipe radiator in a sealed, abysalite-insulated, oxygen filled room with 30 wheezeworts, spaced 1 tile apart each, in three rows of 10. After just one or two cycles the room would be nearly vaccuum, or only 50g of oxygen or so per tile, when starting out with 1500g. I had to pump additional air into the room to combat the gas loss. Even with 30 wheezeworts, I was only able to cool 150 °F water down to 80 °F at a flow rate of 150 g/s, a paltry amount. Wheezeworts' cooling ability seems to be quite low.

[Pinstar]

What about a coal generator in a sealed room(save for an airlock for dupes to refill the generator) wouldn't the c02 pressure build up enough to make Weezeworts in the room more effective? Enough to counter the heat put out by the generator?

[Momotall]

7 minutes ago, Pinstar said:

What about a coal generator in a sealed room(save for an airlock for dupes to refill the generator) wouldn't the c02 pressure build up enough to make Weezeworts in the room more effective? Enough to counter the heat put out by the generator?

It's easy to get a room filled with high pressure CO2 due to its high condensation point. The CO2 pressure can reach 1000kg before liquid vent over pressure. and you can make it even higher by building and destructing liquid pipes with liquified CO2 in them. What we are trying to find out is whether the cooling efficiency of wheezewort is related to gas pressure.

And a wheezewort definitely can counter the heat put out by one coal generator even in normal pressure like 1000g.

[rezecib]

I decided to repeat Kasuha's experiment with a bit better controls, and also check to see what could be learned from the files.

Background literature (aka the files):

I used dotPeek to look at OxygenNotIncluded_Data\Managed\Assembly-CSharp.dll:<Root Namespace>:ColdBreather and ColdBreatherConfig (according to the Strings file, this is what the internal name for Wheezewort is). I see it has:

• deltaEmitTemperature = -5 (presumable C/K)
• consumptionRate = 1 (comparing to AlgaeHabitat, which has a rate of 0.00033333333...., it appears the units are kg/s, because the UI shows Algae Terrariums as consuming 333.333 mg/s)
• consumptionRadius = 1
• emitOffsetCell = (0,1) -- based on my tinkering it looks like this means it draws in from the bottom cell and emits in the upper cell
• sampleCellOffset = (0,0) -- combined with above I think this refers to the lower cell

In ColdBreather, the Exhale function has a little more logic on the temperature:

float temperature = Mathf.Max(component.Element.lowTemp + 5f, component.Temperature + this.master.deltaEmitTemperature);

This looks like it emits at 5 degrees lower than it inhaled, but has a lower-bound on that of 5 degrees above the gas's condensation point.

So, based on this, my expectation would be that each Wheezewort would be able to reduce the average temperature of the cell by:

( 5K * (1 kg/s) / (1 kg/tile * 9 tile) ) = 0.5555... K/s

A cycle is 600s, and we could put this in terms of per kg of gas instead, so this should be 5K per tile per kg of pressure per second. So based on this I would expect each gas cell to be reduced to nearly absolute zero in a cycle... if it could. That doesn't seem quite right...

Experimental design:

• 3x3 gas cells with 1kg of gas in each cell, at 300K, all encased in neutronium (zero heat exchange).
• Flower pots were built with abyssalite and planted by duplicants to start them all off at about the same temperature
• Wheezeworts were primed in a void zone surrounded by neutronium to clear any gas they contained.
• Saved and reloaded in the void zone, replaced void with vacuum to make sure no gas leaked.
• Debug-teleported pots and wheezeworts into gas cells. They seemed broken, not affecting anything, so I waited for a day to pass and then reloaded from the start-of-day save.
• Observed these cooling rates: Natural Gas > CO2 = Chlorine > Polluted O2 = O2 > Hydrogen
• After 1 cycle, calculated average temperature in each cell by doing an average of each tile weighted by the mass in that tile
• Then I let it run long-term and made some more observations

Results:

• 1 Cycle Averages:
  • Natural Gas: 254.2 K (-1505W)
  • CO2: 258.7 K (-297W)
  • Chlorine: 257.9 K (-534W)
  • Polluted O2: 266.4 K (-509W)
  • O2: 266.5 K (-505W)
  • Hydrogen: 278.3 K (-781W)
• Letting it run longer, the natural gas wheezewort eventually stifled itself around 210K. I didn't keep track of what cycle that occurred on (oops...), but I think it was maybe 8 cycles in.
• Hydrogen actually stifled next, 15 cycles in.
• Both oxygen cells at 15 cycles are at 234K. Their cooling has been slowing down. Because their dew point is 90K, I don't know why this is happening.
• Chlorine looks like it's behaving as expected and approaching 243.6K, 5 above its dew point. At 15 cycles it reached about 244K.
• Carbon Dioxide is also behaving as expected, approaching 230K. At 15 cycles it reached 231.9K.

Discussion:

So, the experiment pretty closely followed what Kasuha observed. The cycle 1 temperatures are mystifying because it doesn't match any single visible property of the gases, and the code seems to indicate that it shouldn't care about the type of gas, only taking in at a certain rate and changing the temperature by a flat amount. I checked the files for physical properties of elements that the game tracks... molar mass seemed promising, because the higher it was, the lower the Cycle 1 average was... except for Natural Gas, which should be Methane. I see many other properties in the files that might be relevant, such as gasSurfaceAreaMultiplier, but it appears to be loading it from some other file, and I haven't figured out how to get at that, maybe one of the .bank files in Streaming Assets. Edit: Figured out how to access them with UnityAssetsExplorer, there are text files for each state's elements in sharedassets0.assets. Unfortunately nothing was obviously correlated with the wheezewort cooling amount. However, I did notice while playing around in Excel that (Specific Heat) / (Thermal Conductivity) had the same exact trend, and even had the rough equivalency classes with Chlorine = CO2 and both O2s. The units on that are s*m/g, though, which... doesn't make any intuitive sense.

At least in terms of practical application, it seems clear that you get the most bang for your wort with Natural Gas, but that Wheezeworts can't cool below 210 K (-63C) because they stifle themselves. In terms of "the ultimate cooling solution", Wheezeworts probably have a place just eating up the heat produced by Thermoregulators. However, it looks like temperature exchange across the gas is the most limiting factor here, as each Thermoregulator produces a measly 2.5W of heat, and a Wheezewort in Natural Gas can suck in up to -1505W, apparently.

Because hydrogen actually comes in second in terms of Watts, it's not quite as bad as it appears on the temperature end, and is probably fine for cooling thermoregulators. Its higher specific heat and much higher conductivity make it a better cooler anyway, as it'll hold onto its temperature slightly better and absorb heat from other things much more efficiently.

Edit: Thermoregulators can actually produce a LOT of heat, up in the kW range. I'm not sure exactly how quickly gas passes through it, but it outputs exactly the amount of heat removed. Therefore using them in combination with Wheezeworts should be done SOLELY for exploiting the fact that they can cool things below what Wheezeworts can, and it's probably worth using Natural Gas to cool the thermoregulators with Wheezeworts, while pumping hydrogen through the thermoregulators.

[onebit]

Does this mean Hydrogen is the worst gas to use in a thermoregulator? (offset by its awesome low dew point)

[Nativel]

2 minutes ago, onebit said:

Does this mean Hydrogen is the worst gas to use in a thermoregulator? (offset by its awesome low dew point)

Well I use it, all fine with it. I'll show you in 10 mins.

[onebit]

If its true that wheezeworts inhale on bottom and exhale on top, I wonder if it's more efficient to stack them vertically.

[rezecib]

7 minutes ago, onebit said:

Does this mean Hydrogen is the worst gas to use in a thermoregulator? (offset by its awesome low dew point)

No, hydrogen is the best in... actually every way:

• Dew point: it's the lowest, meaning you can use it to cool things colder than any other gas
• Specific heat: it's the highest, which means that it absorbs more heat before changing temperature. It also means that the thermoregulator's flat temperature adjustment amounts to more energy taken out of it, so more cooling effectiveness than any other gas.
• Thermal conductivity: it's the highest of the gases, which means it can absorb heat faster than other gases.

The reason it looks bad in the experiment is because its specific heat is high, which means it's harder to cool it down (if you're doing constant-energy-rate cooling, but thermoregulators do constant-temperature-delta cooling; they just subtract 14 degrees).

The only way hydrogen might not be the best is in terms of how quickly wheezeworts can remove energy from them, with natural gas getting twice as much removed. But hydrogen is better than everything except natural gas, and because it's so good for other reasons it's probably worth using.

[Nativel]

So here is the answer on question about how to make more than 2 kg pressure of gases in one tile and is it good to use hydrogen for liquefaction.

 

[QuantumPion]

34 minutes ago, rezecib said:

Results:

• 1 Cycle Averages:
  • Natural Gas: 254.2 K (-1505W)
  • CO2: 258.7 K (-297W)
  • Chlorine: 257.9 K (-534W)
  • Polluted O2: 266.4 K (-509W)
  • O2: 266.5 K (-505W)
  • Hydrogen: 278.3 K (-781W)
• Letting it run longer, the natural gas wheezewort eventually stifled itself around 210K. I didn't keep track of what cycle that occurred on (oops...), but I think it was maybe 8 cycles in.
• Hydrogen actually stifled next, 15 cycles in.
• Both oxygen cells at 15 cycles are at 234K. Their cooling has been slowing down. Because their dew point is 90K, I don't know why this is happening.
• Chlorine looks like it's behaving as expected and approaching 243.6K, 5 above its dew point. At 15 cycles it reached about 244K.
• Carbon Dioxide is also behaving as expected, approaching 230K. At 15 cycles it reached 231.9K.

 

rezecib, your results closely match my own. Cooling 150 g/s of water from 150 F to 80 F (65 C to 26 C) with 30 wheezeworts comes out to 4.184 J/g/C * 150 g/s * 39 C / 30 wheezes = 836 W heat removal per wheeze.

[Nativel]

1 minute ago, QuantumPion said:

rezecib, your results closely match my own. Cooling 150 g/s of water from 150 F to 80 F (65 C to 26 C) with 30 wheezeworts comes out to 4.184 J/g/C * 150 g/s * 39 C / 30 wheezes = 836 W heat removal per wheeze.

Is it possible to use water in wheeze? So you just place wheeze in liquid and it's working?

[QuantumPion]

Just now, Nativel said:

Is it possible to use water in wheeze? So you just place wheeze in liquid and it's working?

No, check out my previous post for a description of my setup.

[Nativel]

Just now, QuantumPion said:

No, check out my previous post for a description of my setup.

Ok, but why do you use water heat capacity then multiply it on 150g/s of some gase then multiply it on degrees and then divide on wheeze numbers and after all you've got watts? hahaha

[Nativel]

QuantumPion can you tell me, why do you need to cool down water from the gaiser? Is just for experiment or you need it for some thing?

[QuantumPion]

13 minutes ago, Nativel said:

Ok, but why do you use water heat capacity then multiply it on 150g/s of some gase then multiply it on degrees and then divide on wheeze numbers and after all you've got watts? hahaha

Specific heat of water is 4.184 J/g/C

flow rate of my liquid valve is set to 150 g/s.

4.184 J/g/C * 150 g/s = 627 J/s/C or 627 W/C. 

Temperature change is 65 C - 26C = 39 C. So, 627 W/C * 39 C = 24,400 W. 

Divide 24,400 by 30 wheezeworts = 816 W per wheezewort. (The 836 was a typo)

[Nativel]

IC, you've made liquid pipes from wolframite and cool down the water in it, so now I get it. ok can you tell me - why do you need it for? What for do you use 26 degree water? where?

[QuantumPion]

6 minutes ago, Nativel said:

QuantumPion can you tell me, why do you need to cool down water from the gaiser? Is just for experiment or you need it for some thing?

Pumping and using 65 C water through my base and for all my machines will cook the poor dupes and gradually heat up the whole base until it is uninhabitable.