strawberrygirl

Power - I JUST DON'T GET IT

67 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

I admit I'm wrong about filtering taking 120 watts per geyser, I don't really read your posts at all, I just respond to the last thing you said, so even if you explicitly say that the first paragraph of your post is your main point, I'll still just quote and respond to only your last paragraph.

FTFY.  All good, man, I'll keep that in mind.

Edited by Trego

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1 minute ago, Trego said:

Don't mind me, I'm just a jerk trying to pick on others

Coolio. I'll keep that in mind.

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Kasuha said:

No it is not. Just build some fertilizer makers and use their gas output to feed more generators. Three makers require 360 W power and lead to 800 W produced (minus some for scrubber).

For pollution neutral combination, use 1 gas geyser, 16 fertilizer makers, 7 gas generators, and 3 scrubbers.

 

In all honesty, just building fertilizer makers to get more power feels like game mechanics exploiting. It does not really sit well with me that a certain structure's secondary function becomes the main reason to use it. They handled this quite a bit better with the electrolyzers.

 

You are right of course, and the end that is me not taking advantage of that arbitrary exploit,

Edited by turbonl64

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Namecalling in an ONI forum, how sad.

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

In all honesty, just building fertilizer makers to get more power feels like game mechanics exploiting. It does not really sit well with me that a certain structure's secondary function becomes the main reason to use it. They handled this quite a bit better with the electrolyzers.

Fertilizer makers and electrolyzers can both be used to generate power in ONI.  With the former, this doesn't contradict the laws of nature, with the latter, it does.  But you think they handled it quite a bit better in the latter case?  Do you define "better" as "violates common sense and the laws of physics"?  The problem with the electrolyzers, of course, is that the generators don't require oxygen as an input, which of course is a problem with every generator, but only with the hydrogen generator is there a natural pairing with the electrolyzer.  Digging deeper into your comment, you are concerned that the secondary function of the structure is the main reason to use it.  But what is the real reason that people use FMs+NGG instead of electolyzers+HG?  It's because most people have a surplus of polluted water, not a surplus of clean water, and so the main reason to use one over the other is not its primary function, nor its secondary function, but its cost.  For reference, electolyzers + HG, as a system, take an input of clean water, and give an output of oxygen + power.  FMs + NGG, as a system, take inputs of polluted water, and output power, fertilizer, and CO2.  Obviously, the outputs of the former system are preferable, but the input of the latter system is much more abundant.

 

Edited by Trego

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Trego said:

Namecalling in an ONI forum, how sad.

There's the report button if you have a problem with that. The moderators might see the situation different than you though. I think it's my right to reply to a long post what I want. Not replying to the other parts does not mean I'm not reading them. It certainly did not gave you the right to get up there with a condenscending and prejudging tone. That's, how do you call..., sad for an ONI forum. When I said you acted like a jerk, that's because you act as one, not because I like to call you a jerk. Again, if you disagree: hit the report button and we'll see what happens. If not, I'm happily to debate with you and even willing to answer things I left unaswered if you want that, just as long as you keep your thumb out of your *ss.

11 minutes ago, Trego said:

Fertilizer makers and electrolyzers can both be used to generate power in ONI.  With the former, this doesn't contradict the laws of nature, with the latter, it does.  But you think they handled it quite a bit better in the latter case?  Do you define "better" as "violates common sense and the laws of physics"?

There's little of laws of physics in ONI, and when applied it's inconsistent. I don't mind that as it's a game. My complaint is not about realism. It's about gameplay mechanics, where they made the electrolyzer sufficiently difficult to abuse concerning power, and the fertilizer maker not.

Edited by turbonl64

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Posted (edited)

More namecalling, more refusal to engage on the actual gameplay mechanics, boring; zzzzzzZZ.

Edited by Trego

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2 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

It's about gameplay mechanics, where they made the electrolyzer sufficiently difficult to abuse concerning power, and the fertilizer maker not.

Let's do the numbers. Electrolyzer uses 1000 g/s of water and produces 112 g/s of hydrogen which results in 776 W of net power.

Fertilizer maker uses 150 g/s of polluted water and produces 20 g/s of natural gas which results in 146W of net power.

Which one is harder to abuse again? The only thing "hard" about electrolyzers is getting rid of the oxygen.

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

Let's do the numbers. Electrolyzer uses 1000 g/s of water and produces 112 g/s of hydrogen which results in 776 W of net power.

Fertilizer maker uses 150 g/s of polluted water and produces 20 g/s of natural gas which results in 146W of net power.

Which one is harder to abuse again? The only thing "hard" about electrolyzers is getting rid of the oxygen.

Except I never got it to work according to the numbers. You can put 3 FMs in one room, and just filter pump the gas out. You'll get your NGG working perfectly fine. But, doing the same with a one electrolyzer/one generator will have the generator more idle than not. Infact, I had to put 4 electrolyzers on top of of my base in a wide area, allowing the hydrogen to accumulate in the nook:

OHQw4V.png

Granted, currently the electrolyzers are over pressurized around half the time, but the production of the hydrogen roughly matches the consumption by one single hydrogen generator even when pressure was low and the electrolyzers ran for cycles none stop.

So somewhere these numbers do not add up. Feel free to point out where I'm wrong, but in my experience this is not obviously abusable, opposed to FMs.

 

(And thank you for willing to debate, opposed to that other guy.)

Edited by turbonl64

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Not only am I willing to debate, turbo, but I'll even help you out: use the forum search function for old posts by kasuha, look for posts where kasuha explains how to make an efficient electrolyzer/HG setup, and then you can write kasuha's rebuttal to your post yourself.  That will give you more time to respond to my points :)

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, Trego said:

Not only am I willing to debate, turbo, but I'll even help you out: use the forum search function for old posts by kasuha, look for posts where kasuha explains how to make an efficient electrolyzer/HG setup, and then you can write kasuha's rebuttal to your post yourself.  That will give you more time to respond to my points :)

Well in all sincerity, thank you. I took the advice and tried to look for a solution he applied: I will answer your points I promise, once I cleared this issue:

Quote

 

You can spend a lot of energy if you don't pump the oxygen, let it diffuse around the base and rely on duplicant to breathe it out, and only use the pump to collect the hydrogen. If you put the pump somewhere high where hydrogen can collect, and put a low set valve after the non-hydrogen filter output, it will block the pump and filter every time there's not enough hydrogen collected, saving power.

4ex6dKt.png

 

Kasuha, did this made your generator able to run none stop, given pressure stayed low enough? I actually have a fairly similar solution without the filter (I don't get oxygen into the pump with my set up), with 4 electrolyzers not able to outproduce the generator consumption at low air pressure.

 

Nevermind the fact you don't need these more complex structures for exploiting FMs.

Also note that this what you said roughly 2 weeks ago:

Quote

I don't consider hydrogen a stable energy source. It's a pesky gas that we need to get rid of.

For my power needs, I have a battery of eight natural gas generators running full time off some geysers and fertilizer makers.

In current state of the game I wouldn't mind if hydrogen generator used power to burn the hydrogen. Actually, there could be a device that would eat hydrogen and carbon dioxide and power and produce hydrocarbon mass that could be used for making food, that even has some scientific backing.

 

Given you yourself don't view hydrogen as a stable source for power, you have to admit this is rather contradictory to your earlier rhetoric question "which one is harder to abuse again?".

Edited by turbonl64

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Please keep the posts on topic, constructive and polite. There is no reason to argue. If you cannot reply without being on topic, constructive and polite, please do not reply. Thanks. 

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/guidelines/

Nailed it :)

Might I ask why there's been little mentioned about the idea of consolidating your gas geysers to reduce on pumps? It was the first idea I had when I heard the output was being fixed... 5 geysers - 1 or 2 pumps. Seems fine to me :D 

allthegas.png

Excuse the mess (it's an accept every dupe challenge) but basically 4 (soon to be 6) natural gas geysers connected with a tunnel so that I only have to use 1 or 2 pumps. Average gas output per geyser being 100g/s meaning the pumps are intermittent and constantly backed up with sweet, sweet gas. Currently feeding into 8 Natural Gas Gens, with a further 8 being fed by fertilizer makers.

allthegas2.png

I'm really not sure what the problem is - this still seems good to me....

FYI:

8 Natural gas gens = +6400w
24 Fertilizer makers = -2880w
2 Gas Pumps = -480w

Net gain = 3040w

What's wrong with you guys :D Make vacuums, avoid filters, avoid unnecessary pumps and be nice to each other damnit :p 

P.s. ignore the power outages, it was a fresh load and things hadn't finished spawning :) 

Edited by Lifegrow

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12 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Nailed it :)

Might I ask why there's been little mentioned about the idea of consolidating your gas geysers to reduce on pumps? It was the first idea I had when I heard the output was being fixed... 5 geysers - 1 or 2 pumps. Seems fine to me :D 

allthegas.png

Excuse the mess (it's an accept every dupe challenge) but basically 4 (soon to be 6) natural gas geysers connected with a tunnel so that I only have to use 1 or 2 pumps. Average gas output per geyser being 100g/s meaning the pumps are intermittent and constantly backed up with sweet, sweet gas. Currently feeding into 8 Natural Gas Gens, with a further 8 being fed by fertilizer makers.

allthegas2.png

I'm really not sure what the problem is - this still seems good to me....

FYI:

8 Natural gas gens = +6400w
24 Fertilizer makers = -2880w
2 Gas Pumps = -480w

Net gain = 3040w

What's wrong with you guys :D Make vacuums, avoid filters, avoid unnecessary pumps and be nice to each other damnit :p 

P.s. ignore the power outages, it was a fresh load and things hadn't finished spawning :) 

The idea did cross my mind to just put the geysers in a single tunnel, but my next thought about it was "that's just crazy". Somebody clearly showed he was crazy enough to do it and make it actually work :D.

In all honesty, I could make that idea work fairly easy as well with my setup. How long did it took to sufficiently flood the tunnel?

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A couple of cycles (maybe 5-10?). Just two pumps in there as I sealed it off so that I didn't need filters on the output, else I would have put 3-4 in there to clear it quicker. Sadly the rage-inducing dupe drop bug kept letting slime fall through the tiles, so I had to do a few "breach and clears" - but it wasn't that bad. If I did it again I'd make the tunnels wider to allow the gasses to pass each other easier - but other than that it was just a bit of a fun project :)

Did it live on stream if you want to watch the vod - it's also on the youtube. I will stress it was during an accept every dupe challenge so I was distracted often :p 

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9 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

Kasuha, did this made your generator able to run none stop, given pressure stayed low enough? I actually have a fairly similar solution without the filter (I don't get oxygen into the pump with my set up), with 4 electrolyzers not able to outproduce the generator consumption at low air pressure.

The setup is mainly to provide reliable supply of oxygen. With a battery it sustains itself and produces excess power regardless of number of dupes that you have - it keeps the room at pressure. For continuous generation, you need to keep anough duplicants nearby to get rid of the oxygen. I was never aiming at that, I was usually okay with having full batteries as all my solutions have intermittent power consumption, they only run when they have something sensible to do.

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9 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Might I ask why there's been little mentioned about the idea of consolidating your gas geysers to reduce on pumps?

That's an interesting idea but I think I prefer a pump with an atmo switch set to "above 2000" at each geyser separately. Takes less space, doesn't create impassable stripes through the asteroid, and I think it doesn't need any more power.

I would be also afraid that if the tunnel between the geyser and the pump gets long enough, the geyser may run over pressure at 5 kg per tile while there's still not enough pressure around the pump to scoop 500 g/s.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

The setup is mainly to provide reliable supply of oxygen. With a battery it sustains itself and produces excess power regardless of number of dupes that you have - it keeps the room at pressure. For continuous generation, you need to keep anough duplicants nearby to get rid of the oxygen. I was never aiming at that, I was usually okay with having full batteries as all my solutions have intermittent power consumption, they only run when they have something sensible to do.

Right. So running hydrogen power production along the numbers is not really representative as the excessive production of oxygen will block hydrogen production, and getting rid of the excessive production of oxygen is neither straight forward as you don't want this massive heat-producing set up around your dupes. Am I right to claim this is not a practical way of generating power and you willl only really build this for it's primary function (excessive oxygen production)?

You can run FM power production along the numbers pretty fine as it does not involve any significant hurdle to overcome. If I had to take a wild guess though, this might get nerved in the future.

 

10 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

A couple of cycles (maybe 5-10?). Just two pumps in there as I sealed it off so that I didn't need filters on the output, else I would have put 3-4 in there to clear it quicker. Sadly the rage-inducing dupe drop bug kept letting slime fall through the tiles, so I had to do a few "breach and clears" - but it wasn't that bad. If I did it again I'd make the tunnels wider to allow the gasses to pass each other easier - but other than that it was just a bit of a fun project :)

Did it live on stream if you want to watch the vod - it's also on the youtube. I will stress it was during an accept every dupe challenge so I was distracted often :p 

I'll certainly watch that!

15 hours ago, Trego said:

You're not saving 120w per geyser, that's the entire point of my post. It's 120w per up to 16 NGG.  That doesn't mean you have to build 16 NGG all at once, so your analysis of whether you should build 16 NGG early is irrelevant, you build 1 gas filter and it supports as many as you want, up to 16.  I would never build less than 3 to start though, even if you only had 1 gas geyser there's still your FM's to account for.

I disagree that it's difficult to get up to 10+ sustainable KW.  I always find enough NG geysers and build enough FM's to get that much, not even trying to, just as a byproduct of my other activities ingame that happens.  How could I term that difficult?

What does nearby mean?  My current base has around 10 gas geysers that I'd discovered by cycle 50, at which point I'd probably revealed about 25% of the map.  I always find more NG geysers than steam geysers in maps created since the gas geyser nerf, I'm wondering if they spawned more gas geysers with that change?  Or I've just been getting randomly high NG geysers since the change...

So getting back to this as I promised: You are basically right from a FM spamming situation. Again, I don't really do that as I feel it's an exploit, but that is self-handicapping and does not contradict your point. So, no: regarding FM's power production is not difficult. As mentioned though, I think that will be nerved (they already made the game quite easy with the early release update; I don't think they want to give such an easy bailout on energy issues), nevermind the easy way of getting rid of all of the unwanted polluted water.

Quote

Digging deeper into your comment, you are concerned that the secondary function of the structure is the main reason to use it.  But what is the real reason that people use FMs+NGG instead of electolyzers+HG?  It's because most people have a surplus of polluted water, not a surplus of clean water, and so the main reason to use one over the other is not its primary function, nor its secondary function, but its cost.  For reference, electolyzers + HG, as a system, take an input of clean water, and give an output of oxygen + power.  FMs + NGG, as a system, take inputs of polluted water, and output power, fertilizer, and CO2.  Obviously, the outputs of the former system are preferable, but the input of the latter system is much more abundant.

Let me rephrase my previous comment on primary and secondary functions into a question: Do you build 20-30 FMs primarily for fertilizer? Or do you do it primarily for getting rid of excessive polluted water and creating energy, with the fertilizer a needed but also now in excessive amounts byproduct?

You are not saying anything wrong, but there has been nothing up to this point that defeated my original point "HG power is too difficult to exploit, FM power is very easy to exploit". Infact you and Kasuha have only given more arguments in favor of that hypothesis.

Do you want to reply to my message claiming you don't usually get to start out with 10 NG Geysers at 25% of the map?

Edited by turbonl64

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2 hours ago, Kasuha said:

That's an interesting idea but I think I prefer a pump with an atmo switch set to "above 2000" at each geyser separately. Takes less space, doesn't create impassable stripes through the asteroid, and I think it doesn't need any more power.

I would be also afraid that if the tunnel between the geyser and the pump gets long enough, the geyser may run over pressure at 5 kg per tile while there's still not enough pressure around the pump to scoop 500 g/s.

Having a pump at each geyser (even on atmo switches) definitely uses more power, due to the delay in switch-toggling. Even if you set your atmo to above 2kg, you'll still occasionally find the "insta-vacuum" occurrences lead to partial packets of gas.

The geysers never run over pressure due to the pressure falling at the pump locations and there always being a "space" for the gas to disperse to, however it never drops below 2.5-3kish. Honestly though, if the geysers ever did over pressure then it means my ridiculously long piping is backed up and I have a problem elsewhere :D Again, it's 5 geysers to 8 generators (not 8 and a third ;) ), so there'll always be a slight build up over time - i'm adding another geyser tonight to make it a round 10 NGG's, then I'll see if the gas-flow needs to be tweaked...

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2 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Having a pump at each geyser (even on atmo switches) definitely uses more power, due to the delay in switch-toggling. Even if you set your atmo to above 2kg, you'll still occasionally find the "insta-vacuum" occurrences lead to partial packets of gas.

I'll have to test that. Insta-vacuum likely does form but as far as I remember the pump is able to send 500 g packets while the pressure in the room is already safely below 2000 g per tile. Plus the pump fills its internal storage first, and when it's powered off it spills that internal storage to the pipe, providing some excess packets.

100 g/s average gas production is 1/5 of maximum pump capacity so theoretical minimum is 240/5 = 48 W average power draw. If it's 60 W rather than 48 W, I'm fine with it.

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1 minute ago, Kasuha said:

I'll have to test that. Insta-vacuum likely does form but as far as I remember the pump is able to send 500 g packets while the pressure in the room is already safely below 2000 g per tile. Plus the pump fills its internal storage first, and when it's powered off it spills that internal storage to the pipe, providing some excess packets.

100 g/s average gas production is 1/5 of maximum pump capacity so theoretical minimum is 240/5 = 48 W average power draw. If it's 60 W rather than 48 W, I'm fine with it.

Yeah I totally get that, it was a bit of an exercise in minimizing unnecessary power loss since the geyser fix. Hence me not using any filters in the fertilizer room either and instead painstakingly making it a vacuum :D 

I'd love it if there were advanced versions of the basic switches - i.e. an Advanced Atmo Switch - that occupied only one tile and allowed a max and minimum range to activate (but maybe cost 4x more materials?). I've done a lot of tinkering with multiple switches in-line, but having them occupy one tile would be really nice for accuracy. Or stack-able/upgrade-able switches :D 

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16 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

Hence me not using any filters in the fertilizer room either and instead painstakingly making it a vacuum :D 

I strongly believe mechanical filters are a thing that's going to stay with us. I feel no shame using them. They have drawbacks compared to normal filters - the filtered gas/liquid may appear on the unfiltered output. But they do guarantee that only the filtered material appears on the filtered output and they are incredible in saving power.

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16 minutes ago, Kasuha said:

I strongly believe mechanical filters are a thing that's going to stay with us. I feel no shame using them. They have drawbacks compared to normal filters - the filtered gas/liquid may appear on the unfiltered output. But they do guarantee that only the filtered material appears on the filtered output and they are incredible in saving power.

Yeah I could do with picking your brains about this as i'm completely inept at using them. I've seen all your posts about them, but can never get my head around it. Can I buy you a steak dinner and we can discuss it over a brandy? ;) 

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1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

Yeah I could do with picking your brains about this as i'm completely inept at using them. I've seen all your posts about them, but can never get my head around it. Can I buy you a steak dinner and we can discuss it over a brandy? ;) 

Credit where credit's due, assuming it's interesting topic enough to not be considered necroing, we can discuss it in the post where it first appeared:

Or I can try to make a post about how to build one. It's really simple, the hardest part is getting it primed correctly.

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1 minute ago, Kasuha said:

Credit where credit's due, assuming it's interesting topic enough to not be considered necroing, we can discuss it in the post where it first appeared:

Or I can try to make a post about how to build one. It's really simple, the hardest part is getting it primed correctly.

Yeah that's the one - PVD. It's the priming that baffled me, but may really be worth necroing the other thread as it's a brilliant concept, and with so many people complaining about natural geysers, it should be given some real consideration now more than ever.

See you there :p 

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