EuedeAdodooedoe

How come Klei keeps implementing useless/underpowered and highly exploitative items?

57 posts in this topic

An item from the latest update: napsack...

You'd think Klei would know what they are doing. So, the heck? I just don't understand and would like some clarification. Overlooks? Other items are not taken intro consideration when making them? Balance is completely disregarded? Not enough testing? I'm confused :(

I'm not talking about decorative stuff, of course, this is all stuff that is supposed to be used in some form. Do they want them to be situational only? Because generally speaking, you can't use this much due to it requiring Toadstool skins, obviously.

On the other hand, some other items they implemented in the update, like the bone armour, just make things that aren't supposed to be easy, easier, aka enable more ways to exploit the game. Why is this? How does it come to it?

Edited by EuedeAdodooedoe
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21 minutes ago, Lumina said:

I'm amazed at the players, in less than 4 hours they are able to say that an item is useless. Testing all the situations we can have in the game in a so short time is very impressive.

STS, Ice Staves and even Pan Flutes are more reliable and useful for putting mobs to stay in one place. May be not if you're grinding for canaries and Toadstool skins all day long (who wants to do that honestly though?), but that's only in comparison to Pan Flute. STS still rules and Ice Staves are cheap, albeit only possible to target one mob at a time with.

Others have noticed the same thing. Either way, I just want to know how or why the balance of certain items turn out to not be so good.

And in any case, if we do find a good use for this item, it may be that it'll be in an exploitative nature. Kind of like how it happened for the End Tables, which mind you are decorative structures.

Edited by EuedeAdodooedoe
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STS is Sleepytime story i guess ? So an item that request wickerbottom. Maybe the purpose is to offer an alternative you can have whatever player you are playing ?

 

10 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Others have noticed the same thing. Either way, I just want to know how or why the balance of certain items turn out to not be so good.

Because it's often easier to make an item better if it's underpowered rather than nerf a too good item. Because it's easier to make an item not too powerful on paper and see if players are using it in a way you didn't think about. Because some people are complaining about balance everytime and sometime the purpose is just to add some diversity. Because some players have very specific playstyle and it could change the way they perceive usefulness of items. Because Klei could be careful before adding a new item, not wanting it to be a must have, especially if you have to beat a difficult boss for it. Because mistake could happen. Because some people are happy with the items as they are. Because... I don't know, there are various reasons.

 

14 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

And in any case, if we do find a good use for this item, it may be that it'll be in an exploitative nature. Kind of like how it happened for the End Tables, which mind you are decorative structures.

Yes they are ? I'm not aware of all the abuses of the game, so for me they are decoratives structures, yes.

 

1 minute ago, xxVERSUSxy said:

I understood pretty much nix from your post, OP. What is a "napsack"?

A new item added in the update.

Spoiler

It makes monster in an area asleep and player groggy then asleep. It seems to be harder to make than the others sleep/freeze option.

 

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The best way to summarize the napsack is this:

 

An item dropped from a professional fight only professionals will beat, that professionals will probably never use.

 

I don't exactly see any use of the napsack at this moment besides forcing bosses to sleep after using the panflute so many times that it stops putting them to sleep for longer than the napsack's 9-ish seconds of sleep.

Honestly I myself still haven't tried out the bone helmet, but I'm pretty sure I won't really be using it compared to, say, the bee queen crown.

2 minutes ago, Lumina said:

Yes they are ? I'm not aware of all the abuses of the game, so for me they are decoratives structures, yes.

They have one of the smallest placement hitboxes ingame, and they have a collision box the same size. You can place them super close to each other to make a wall mobs won't eat through, which is particularly useful for, say, the moonstone fight. (Note: Boss mobs can still break them) Their collision box also does not go away if they burn either, so don't even have to bother with a flingo there

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I wish someone would fully explain this napsack thing in detail. All I got out of this is that it can put enemies to sleep. But that's it. No idea about it's recipe (toadstool skins I'm guessing), if it effects one enemy or an area, amount of uses, ect.

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I'm very underwhelmed by the napsack.

First and foremost , the napsack is actually harder to obtain and maintain than most other sleep options in the game. Let's compare, shall we?

Pan Flute:

  • One guaranteed to be available at the deciduous forest.
  • More can be obtained with mandrakes, (2-5 available at the start of a world). Rarely drop from Klaus's presents.
  • Puts everything to sleep in a radius of about 1.5 screens.
  • Has 10 uses.

Sleepy Time Stories:

  • Craftable with reeds(abundant material in one location) and nightmare fuel(available at any time, if insane)
  • Does the same thing pan flutes do.
  • Has 5 uses.
  • Only obtainable if Wickerbottom is present.

Sleep Darts:

  • Somewhat difficult to obtain feathers in bulk, rest of crafting materials are abundant(stingers, reeds)
  • May require multiple uses to sedate a single target.
  • Darts sometimes "miss" (it looks like the dart hit a target but they don't actually hit anything)

Bearger:

  • Obtainable every autumn from the second year onwards.
  • Unavailable in the caves.
  • Puts everything within 1.5 screens to sleep.
  • Unlimited uses in Winter/Summer until death from excessive yawning.
  • Will make the user drowsy and maybe kill them too.

Napsack:

  • Requires beating the one boss that cannot be blown up with gunpowder.
  • A single fight will net about 3 shroom skins, so if they're all used for napsacks, a maximum of 12 napsacks per Toad fight. (Klaus's presents might give more)
  • Requires driving innocent canaries to sickness, cruel and time consuming in absence of multiple bird cages.
  • Forces sleep upon a sinkhole sized area for 3-5 ish seconds, then dissipates.
  • If PvP is on, don't try fighting on those clouds, because they will put you to sleep.

Anyways, STS and the Pan flute are easier to obtain, come with more uses and affect a larger area. The only use for the napsacks I see is-

19 minutes ago, Weirdobob said:

I don't exactly see any use of the napsack at this moment besides forcing bosses to sleep after using the panflute so many times that it stops putting them to sleep for longer than the napsack's 9-ish seconds of sleep.

Stole the words out of my mouth.

Also, with regards to PvP, players also only sleep as long as mobs do(as long as the clouds last), while STS and the Pan Flute allow for the stacking of grogginess from multiple uses. Flute and book can make players sleep for many minutes(and leave them drowsy for just as long), but the napsack only make them sleep for as long as they last and drowsy for about 3 seconds.

Edited by Sketched_Philo
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1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

- snip -

Putting aside the absurdly silly "Game Balance too OP" memes people seem to throw around way too much around here(seriously feels like I'm reading a PVP MMO forum sometimes).

The following points I do agree with, the Bone Helm is nice for wicker as it basically allows you to read books with zero downsides, just make sure you have some sanity restoration (Cactus / Taffy) before you take the helmet off. However helmet isn't actually too great otherwise,
if you don't have a Bernie, sure use it for high sanity drain fights. If you want to farm NM fuel attacking any shade aggroes all of them, considering how many you spawn that's going to be dealing with a lot of them, there are far better methods. If they didn't all aggro in radius then 15, 33 sanity you get from killing shades would be a nice trick to farm NM fuel + mobile sanity station.

Consider the sanity drain from the helmet and from the shades, you're not going to be wearing this helmet "around the house". Which is a shame cause it looks great. In it's current iteration it seems pretty bad, too bad to justify.

Sleepbomb, shroom skins being put into this, requires killing the new toadstool challenge mode to even craft them in the first place. It's a pretty big step when things like the panflute exist, STS is only applicable to Maxwell / Wicker so not reliable for everyone. If sleeping things had an actual important enough use I could justify that price and effort, but I'd rather just kill Klaus for the chance at the Mandrake.

Devils advocate, it fills the niche that you didn't get the Panflute, don't intend on playing long enough to kill klaus every winter, will have to roll against other players for presents and get lucky even if you do kill Klaus. It's a pretty useful item if you need to sleep stuff, it can also save your life with it's AOE field in panic situations (Splumonkeys / Hounds / Bunnymen). Or maybe you're just on a really old server and have all the Glowcaps you need. Might as well put those skins towards something.

It's not useless, but it is absolutely niche.

Edited by Cheetos
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2 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

I wish someone would fully explain this napsack thing in detail. All I got out of this is that it can put enemies to sleep. But that's it. No idea about it's recipe (toadstool skins I'm guessing), if it effects one enemy or an area, amount of uses, ect.

Napsack

Requires beating the new extra-hard Misery Toadstool to get the recipe (This is the only special thing the new toad drops)
Crafted with 1 shroom skin + 1 poisoned (volatile) canary
Crafting it once gives you 4 of the item
Can be thrown like a water balloon and it makes an antlion sinkhole-sized AoE that instantly puts anything BESIDES players(on PvE, will put players to sleep + add grogginess on PvP) to sleep if they step on the area, however, the effect will dissipate and it's effect stops in what I'm told is not actually 9-ish seconds but instead 5-ish seconds.

In case that makes no sense to you:

Basically imagine a circle. As soon as you step in this circle, you fall asleep. Multiple things can fall asleep in this circle. The circle stops existing after 5 seconds of it's creation.

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28 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

We can do that AND criticize the aspects of the game we think need work. If anything, criticism is a way to express our appreciation for their game.

If I didn't care about DST , I would not care enough to criticize it.

I get that, and I believe criticism is a great way to improve anything.

However, there's a point when you have too much criticism.

I think he's reached his point.

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Criticizing a game is good and helps the devs better understand what needs to be done to better the game, but complaining does not help if you shove your ideals in a rude manner. 

not everyone is going to play wicker and the helm perishes like the bee queen crown which is underrated op. if the helm was refuelable then it be op. you go through "hard boss" that takes prep to get it, in my opinion thats pretty good end game items( bone helm, armor and thurible).

 

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7 hours ago, Lumina said:

Because Klei could be careful before adding a new item, not wanting it to be a must have, especially if you have to beat a difficult boss for it. Because mistake could happen. Because some people are happy with the items as they are. Because... I don't know, there are various reasons.

yeah! cause we totally dont want another sanity station mishap....

 

wait bone helm makes nightmare creatures not aggro? spamm wicker spam!!!!

 

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4 hours ago, JellyUltra said:

I hate how people here act like you can only either absolutely love everything Klei puts out, or constantly s*** on them and everything they do. It doesn't always have to be extremes, guys. I appreciate that Klei is still adding new content, but the napsack is still an underwhelming prize for such a hard boss fight.

Yeah but maybe it should. I mean, i don't want to feel like i have to do a very difficult fight to obtain an item so powerful i can't play without. And i don't want to feel like i MUST do the napsack with the drop of the boss instead of a nice hat/a nice lamp. So i'm not saying the item can't be improved a little, but there is a balance to find to avoid removing choices or making player frustrated.

And i agree about the fact that people could say what is wrong for them with a new items. In fact in this very topic i saw examples of feedback that weren't positive but perfectly ok. As long as there is something constructive and people keep in mind that maybe they can miss something about an item, it's ok.

 

 

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2 hours ago, CutChemist said:

So the guy makes a topic about possibly making the devs reluctant to work on the game then turns around and makes a topic complaining when they update the game ?

Yeah, but you must understand, he put the wrong title to his topic, the right topic was more like "dev should work on the game even if we are rude", accordingly to the content of the topic.

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I didn't expect half the users here to **** all over this topic. I guess the bias will continue.

 

The purpose of this topic, which is in the title, if you're too stupid to understand is this: to get an answer to the question that the title asks. The post of the topic simply gives some examples. Because I don't get how items of bad balance get into the game to begin with.

@Rellimarual wow didn't ecpect such dumb nitpicking at something so krrelevant you'd think none would care about. I don't see how my post was rude. In any case if that's what you're coming to this topic for, there's the back button over there for you to leave. No reason to be ****posting just because it's me. If you have nothing to contribute to the subject of this topic, then there is no reason for you to stay here.

Edited by EuedeAdodooedoe

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Klei was never really good at balancing things when it comes to DST, but they've came up some good things that puts useless things to use.

I'm pretty sure they'll come up with something that makes napsack viable at some point, but I really don't see any use so far.

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4 hours ago, Lumina said:

Yeah but maybe it should. I mean, i don't want to feel like i have to do a very difficult fight to obtain an item so powerful i can't play without. And i don't want to feel like i MUST do the napsack with the drop of the boss instead of a nice hat/a nice lamp. So i'm not saying the item can't be improved a little, but there is a balance to find to avoid removing choices or making player frustrated.

And i agree about the fact that people could say what is wrong for them with a new items. In fact in this very topic i saw examples of feedback that weren't positive but perfectly ok. As long as there is something constructive and people keep in mind that maybe they can miss something about an item, it's ok.

 

 

Bone Armor and the Toadstool Blueprints are a fine balance. Very useful and great, but of course you don't need them. You don't really need any item, but the harder/more advanced a boss is, the better the prize should be. Right now Edgy Toad's "good prize" is cutting the Toad grind, which isn't enough for a boss who poses this much more of a challange.

 

So, here are the issues with this update, although I do like most of it/the concepts it introduces:

-The Deerclops Statue using an Eyeball makes it an item nobody would really use, due to what I said in the update thread.

-The Napsack is an item exclusive to a very tough boss, which does something you can already do in a bunch of ways, but not as good as them. The ways it can be improved are very simple. Let it last longer and have a larger radius(It's a buff but not all too great of one), make it override the thing with hounds waking up when 1 does, if they're in the cloud(Niche buff, won't make it too amazing but it'll give it an alright use), or, and this is the most powerful one, make it put the targets to sleep repeatedly while the cloud lasts. Given this lasts for just a few seconds it shouldn't be too op, and you could make it so there has to be a waiting time between 1 cloud and another in order to make cheesing with it around the same league as gunpowder.

Fuelweaver helmet looks pretty alright imo, seems to be a mix of Bernie, Bee Queen Helmet(Armor that's not meant to be used as armor but rather used for its additional effects) and the Nightmare amulet, and I like that.

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