bernieneedslove Willow and Bernie

[Onetel21]

BORING STORY TIME, SKIP IF NOT INTERESTED: I love how Bernie works. Even if most people don't see its potential, having a bernie ready to protect your bums (and those of every other player in the server) while you are fighting a deerclop with 0 sanity is a true lifesaver. You literally  don't have to worry about the nightmares during long fights, and can prevent you getting ambushed by nightmares while you are not paying attenction.

Sadly you have to waste 1 inventory slot to carry Bernie with you at all times. I know you could leave him in the base.. but usually:

a) Someone takes him without knowing how it works

b) You store in a chest. Someone notices it and places it on the ground. As soon as players go insane they just ignore the nightmares and watch as Bernie gets eaten alive  instead of going to help.

c) Despite you never going insane , other people will blame you if you use the sewing kit to repair Bernie because "it's a waste". It's my bear okay!?

Furthermore Bernie is not unique to Willow. Everybody can take him. This means that once a Willow dies, just like her lighter, people can still use her items. Basically one could spawn as willow, suicide and leave the server while still helping others. How would a Woodie main feel if any other character could chop as fast as him?

MY SUGGESTION (Important part  ): So.. unless we all learn that Bernie is made just to buy you some time against nightmares and he still needs help , i feel like Bernie needs to be reworked. How about  devs making it  "attached" to Willow like a backpack, so that everytime that someone's sanity drops below 30% it magically "spawns" under Willow  and stays there until she picks him up again (or.. hits him to despawn him like you would despawn Abigail or Shadow puppets). Another solution would be to make Bernie a special backpack for Willow only that can be placed on the ground to work as usual.

I understand that Willow's mechanics are not going to be reworked because she's way too strong compared to other characters ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sarcasm ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  ) but at least rework her items!

[Starlogy]

3 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

because she's way too strong compared to other characters

you high or something?

[Onetel21]

Just now, StarmanNess said:

you high or something?

One part of my post is a lie. Guess which one is it..  

[GiddyGuy]

7 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

MY SUGGESTION (Important part  ): So.. unless we all learn that Bernie is made just to buy you some time against nightmares and he still needs help , i feel like Bernie needs to be reworked. How about  devs making it  "attached" to Willow like a backpack, so that everytime that someone's sanity drops below 30% it magically "spawns" under Willow  and stays there until she picks him up again (or.. hits him to despawn him like you would despawn Abigail or Shadow puppets). Another solution would be to make Bernie a special backpack for Willow only that can be placed on the ground to work as usual.

Nah I like Bernie sanders as he is now, you can have multiple Bernie sanders deployed so your team can fight toad stool without any shadows attacking them, and by the end of it having one lone Bernie sander standing there with his fallen brethren after the war of shadows and frogs.

[Onetel21]

2 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

Nah I like Bernie sanders as he is now, you can have multiple Bernie sanders deployed so your team can fight toad stool without any shadows attacking them, and by the end of it having one lone Bernie sander standing there with his fallen brethren after the war of shadows and frogs.

But how is this "willow unique"? i mean one could spawn as willow, craft them, leave and Job's done! It should feel more rewarding to play one character over the other, like when you play a full-grown magnificent beard Wilson and you know you can go out in the winter for a very very long time , or when your books revive an entire farm as wickerbottom. You know.. unique stuff  She needs a boost somehow, and i feel Bernie could be the right direction to start with for developers! 

[minespatch]

2 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

Nah I like Bernie sanders as he is now, you can have multiple Bernie sanders deployed so your team can fight toad stool without any shadows attacking them, and by the end of it having one lone Bernie sander standing there with his fallen brethren after the war of shadows and frogs.

[GiddyGuy]

4 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

like when you play a full-grown magnificent beard Wilson and you know you can go out in the winter for a very very long time

It'd be more beneficial to pick Wx-78 and ask your fellow librarian to make you immune to freezing and overheating than picking Wilson, but if you enjoy playing him then each their own.

4 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

or when your books revive an entire farm as wickerbottom.

The same can be said for Wicker but it's quite limited, say you have a reed trap as Wicker get a ton of reeds with horticulture and make a ton of books and leave them for Maxwell players to use, then leave. How does that make Wicker unique?

[Mr.Tarunio]

2 minutes ago, minespatch said:

of course XD

[Onetel21]

3 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

It'd be more beneficial to pick Wx-78 and ask your fellow librarian to make you immune to freezing and overheating than picking Wilson, but if you enjoy playing him then each their own.

You pretty much depend on a Wickerbottom in that case , which is not picked 100% of the times, expecially in small servers. Wx-78 is still one of my favorite btw  I just can't always rely on somebody else

3 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said:

The same can be said for Wicker but it's quite limited, say you have a reed trap as Wicker get a ton of reeds with horticulture and make a ton of books and leave them for Maxwell players to use, then leave. How does that make Wicker unique?

Not exactly. A book can be read 5 times before disappearing.
A Bernie has 100% durability that can be fixed an unlimited amount of time by a sewing kit by any other character. Furthermore you'd need to still have a Maxwell online for that, who again, isn't picked 100% of the times

[GiddyGuy]

3 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

which is not 100% picked

False.

3 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

who again, isn't 100% picked.

True.

3 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

Not exactly. A book can be read 5 times before disappearing.
A Bernie has 100% durability that can be fixed an unlimited amount of time by a sewing kit by any other character.

Touché. And a reed trap has a lower chance of appearing than a Maxwell player.

[Mr.Tarunio]

7 minutes ago, Onetel21 said:

You pretty much depend on a Wickerbottom in that case , which is not picked 100% of the times, expecially in small servers. Wx-78 is still one of my favorite btw  I just can't always rely on somebody else

telelocator staff boi.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

5 minutes ago, jantonio said:

telelocator staff boi.

Too unreliable. 1 day for first use, the staff having 5 uses, and then gaining less each consecutive use. You might have enough gems and nm fuel for that, but definitely not living logs.

[Mr.Tarunio]

2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Too unreliable. 1 day for first use, the staff having 5 uses, and then gaining less each consecutive use. You might have enough gems and nm fuel for that, but definitely not living logs.

boi, i got like 5 stacks from a cave forest i made with cave stalker breaking down the trees.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

6 hours ago, jantonio said:

boi, i got like 5 stacks from a cave forest i made with cave stalker breaking down the trees.

For how long did you do this?

How many people go on your server?

Anything else you use that takes up living logs?

I've found that with the addition of the mushroom planters, living logs get eaten up quickly.

[ShadowDuelist]

8 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Too unreliable. 1 day for first use, the staff having 5 uses, and then gaining less each consecutive use. You might have enough gems and nm fuel for that, but definitely not living logs.

It's definitely not as good as having a Wickerbottom, but still good enough. The way I use it is, that I remain "normal" most of the time and then overcharge myself when needed, for one day. Sort of like how you would get mighty as Wolfgang.
It's a lot better to use it only when the effect is over, so one staff gives you 5 days (which to me at least, are non consecutive)

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

9 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

It's definitely not as good as having a Wickerbottom, but still good enough. The way I use it is, that I remain "normal" most of the time and then overcharge myself when needed, for one day. Sort of like how you would get mighty as Wolfgang.
It's a lot better to use it only when the effect is over, so one staff gives you 5 days (which to me at least, are non consecutive)

I'll just wait for wicker then... wait, I'm not playing the game at all recently...

[Onetel21]

This is a Willow/Bernie topic!! Let's not move it somewhere else please 

[Arlesienne]

Do you want Bernie to work like Lucy, OP? That when you drop that item, only you can retrieve it?

[JohnWatson]

Willow is not the worst anymore after her recent buff, she has effectively no downsides anymore. Wilson takes Willow's place as 'worst DST character' in the process. Though, I still think that Willow should be buffed more or, even better, revamped to have her fit a meaningful niche again.

[Onetel21]

13 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

 Though, I still think that Willow should be buffed more or, even better, revamped to have her fit a meaningful niche again.

Exactly. She does not need a buff. She needs a revamp! And i don't agree. You can't call Wilson the "worst character", i'm sorry. He is the only character with no real disadvantages, so it will ALWAYS be the best character for newcomers. Maybe you don't remember it, but we've all been noobs who died on day 21 long time ago.

All i say is: Willow has potential. Devs just have to bring it out

[JohnWatson]

Just now, Onetel21 said:

Exactly. She does not need a buff. She needs a revamp! And i don't agree. You can't call Wilson the "worst character", i'm sorry. He is the only character with no real disadvantages, so it will ALWAYS be the best character for newcomers. Maybe you don't remember it, but we've all been noobs who died on day 21 long time ago.

All i say is: Willow has potential. Devs just have to bring it out

Wilson is objectively the worst character when compared to the rest. I'm neither referring to who uses Wilson and how Wilson gets used by whom. How you use Wilson is subjective and dependent on player experience.

The cost of picking Wilson is the upsides of the other characters, and the same applies for the rest of the characters. That is because you can only play as one character at a time.

Imagine it like this:
There's two boxes. You've to choose only one box to open. The contents of the box you've chosen will be yours to keep and you're allowed to check what's inside the boxes before choosing.

Box A contains two books.
Box B contains a book and a chair.

At first, you may think that choosing either has no cost and you only have benefits, however, there is actually a cost to choosing either. Choosing Box A costs you a chair, while choosing Box B costs you a book. So, even if neither of the options showed a clear cost or downside like having to pay an amount of money, there's still the cost of the benefits of the other option. Now, the same concept applies to character choice in any game that doesn't allow you to conveniently switch characters at any time.

I have been trying to explain the exact same thing to several people on this forum for a few days now, I really hope you get it this time so I don't have to repeat myself yet again.

[Onetel21]

Just now, JohnWatson said:

Wilson is objectively the worst character when compared to the rest. I'm neither referring to who uses Wilson and how Wilson gets used by whom. How you use Wilson is subjective and dependent on player experience.

The cost of picking Wilson is the upsides of the other characters, and the same applies for the rest of the characters. That is because you can only play as one character at a time.

Imagine it like this:
There's two boxes. You've to choose only one box to open. The contents of the box you've chosen will be yours to keep and you're allowed to check what's inside the boxes before choosing.

Box A contains two books.
Box B contains a book and a chair.

At first, you may think that choosing either has no cost and you only have benefits, however, there is actually a cost to choosing either. Choosing Box A costs you a chair, while choosing Box B costs you a book. So, even if neither of the options showed a clear cost or downside like having to pay an amount of money, there's still the cost of the benefits of the other option. Now, the same concept applies to character choice in any game that doesn't allow you to conveniently switch characters at any time.

I have been trying to explain the exact same thing to several people on this forum for a few days now, I really hope you get it this time so I don't have to repeat myself yet again.

I understand clearly what you mean, just because he doesn't have disadvantages that doesn't make him a "good" character overall, but he is a good starting character for sure. 
And after all , we are all free to play what we want (see Wes).
 

Yet again when i play Wilson i know what i'm playing. I can't expect much from the most simplistic character out there. But when i pick Willow, with my old memories of DS , i know what i'm really missing on this character, and this is what i would call a real shame. I hope Willow gets some love.

[absimiliard]

2 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Wilson is objectively the worst character when compared to the rest. I'm neither referring to who uses Wilson and how Wilson gets used by whom. How you use Wilson is subjective and dependent on player experience.

 

I think you mean to compare Wilson to the rest of the characters EXCEPT Wes, right?

 

(Because I'm having a very hard time understanding how you could think Wes better than Wilson.  I mean, sure, balloon-o-mancy is a funny idea but the humor-value of it is just that, humor-value.  I do love me my little mime -- whether Triumphant, Surviving, or a Guest of Honor -- but ... Objectively ... I think Wes is much more obviously the worst character than Wilson.)

[Alarsin]

Wilson is totally OP due to his beard. 

[DarkXero]

13 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

I have been trying to explain the exact same thing to several people on this forum for a few days now, I really hope you get it this time so I don't have to repeat myself yet again.

Your definition of "balanced" is different from the definition of other people.

You say that Wilson is the worst because all the other characters can nullify their downsides (and become Wilson), and then also bring their upsides to the table. Well, Wilson is indeed the worst, the guy on the left extreme of a set, if we assume that "balanced" means that the character is the median of the set of characters sorted (left to right, min to max) by the metric of who saves you the most play time and makes the challenges easier. Of course, for Wes you consider decor and annoying talk sounds as challenges where Wes can outperform Wilson.

People say Wilson is balanced because the game is pretty much made to be completed by Wilson. There is no challenge the game throws at you that isn't intended for a Wilson. Wilson is the game's "balancing unit": everything revolves around Wilson. For example, when Klei made the Deerclops, they didn't think "hey, we should give the guy, 4000 health, no wait, the character can go mighty and at this point in game we can expect him to be mighty, so we should give the guy 6000 health". Or "hey, we should give the guy, 4000 health, no wait, the character can spawn a massive tentacle trap that can kill the Deerclops without the character even hitting it once". No, they made the Deerclops to be smacked around by a Wilson.

If you tune the game around a "balancing unit", all you need to do is to tune the other characters individually (which helps when you are trying to make a different play style for each character). The problem is that you get our current Wilson, a bland character with perks that can be emulated by game mechanics that everybody can access (or it wouldn't be a balancing unit). Bad for Wilson, good for everybody else.

Say, that Wilson was given access to potions that made him as strong as a mighty Wolfgang for 1 minute. Now, that would be something that would make Wilson more interesting. But what do we do now? If you tune the rest of the game around buffed Wilson, it would leave the characters without the damage multiplier in a bad spot and would require individual tuning around a new ideal Wilson. If you don't, then you still would be tuning the game around a new ideal Wilson. A new Wilson that shares common mechanics among characters. And what do we do with this new Wilson? Will we find out he's the worst and then repeat the cycle? Should we just not introduce this character to the game then?

Taking this into consideration, what should we do with Wilson? Maybe buff Wilson, but keep a hidden Wilson to balance the game around it? Maybe keep Wilson as it is, to give people the default experience? Well, I don't know. Personally, I don't stop having fun with Wilson just because he's Wilson and others exist.

I do know that repeating the definition of opportunity cost will be a pointless endeavor. Market doesn't care.