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EsaiXD    580
Posted (edited)

From what i can see wolfgang is all perks with no real downsides so why not give him a downside that sort of applies to his character in the game.

currently the only downside wolfgang has is a higher sanity drain from monsters and darkness which in reality isnt even a downside as he can just kill the sanity monsters in 3 or 4 hits  so why not make sanity affect him differently as how willow is affected with her freeze effect.

lets make wolfgang  actually scared of monsters. How this would work  is when his sanity gets lowers he begins to miss when fighting (probably like how weapon slips work when you are wet). this makes his downside of higher sanity loss even more prevalent has wolfgang would have to keep sane to really fight anything and cant just be a all powerful being that doesn't even need to care about his sanity.

I only suggested this cause really sanity is not a factor  to a lot of median to high level players and this reason is why Wolfgang is pretty much the best solo character. This should make him a little more balanced

 

got 2 suggestions of how this would work

a max of 10 percent chance of weapon slipping at 0 sanity  and it ranges from 100 to 0

30percent at 0 sanity  and  0 percent at 100 sanity scaling as he goes insane

 

Edited by EsaiXD
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Diaboliko    126

Seems fine to me in PvE terms in case if Wolfgang wont have the stun time when he drops his weapon :>

Might as well make it depend on insanity aura that is applied to Wolfgang(starting with like 10 sanity/minute). Like make him drop weapon if he's hitting scary things, rather then players/butterflies/whatever else. Otherwise it would be too annoying.

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Sudura2017    449
18 minutes ago, SandvichSpy said:

You forgot higher hunger loss.

Lower than normal in Wimpy. It's more an upside than anything - Stay in Wimpy then bulk up for a fight. It balances out, if not using a lot less food than a normal Wilson

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EpicCity    4

Sanity is a non issue, you can keep it up at any time during important fights with bundles of green caps or cactus flesh. Maybe instead of him dropping his weapon, he could freeze in fear for a second when near monsters with insanity aura, and have the same percent chance scale based on sanity level that you suggested. When frozen in fear, he can't craft, move, or access inventory. Similar to mind control, but with shorter duration. That would make staying insane more dangerous, especially if you're caught in the dark.

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SandvichSpy    89
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sudura2017 said:

Lower than normal in Wimpy. It's more an upside than anything - Stay in Wimpy then bulk up for a fight. It balances out, if not using a lot less food than a normal Wilson

As miniscule of a downside it's still a downside. But id rather stay mighty all the time for the extra speed since food shouldn't be a problem once you reach mid-late game.

Edited by SandvichSpy

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EsaiXD    580
20 hours ago, SandvichSpy said:

As miniscule of a downside it's still a downside. But id rather stay mighty all the time for the extra speed since food shouldn't be a problem once you reach mid-late game.

which is why the downside is pretty much non existant even to mid level players. this is the reason why i wanted to have some brainstorming to make wolfgang a more interesting character other than just hunger management

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JohnWatson    1,514

Wolfgang is already a balanced and interesting character to play. It's just that most other characters are underpowered and have either boring or poorly-implemented mechanics.

In my opinion, Wolfgang should be the basis for balance. Not Wickerbottom, not Wigfrid, and definitely not Wilson.

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Diaboliko    126
11 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Wolfgang is already a balanced and interesting character to play. It's just that most other characters are underpowered and have either boring or poorly-implemented mechanics.

In my opinion, Wolfgang should be the basis for balance. Not Wickerbottom, not Wigfrid, and definitely not Wilson.

Imo things should be balanced around Wes. I find him perfectly fine in terms of boss-killing(all apart from the toad, since he is pretty fat; and queen since she's a disgusting abomination). Wolfgang is a little too strong in basic pve content. He has no troubles of killing non-raid bosses whatsoever(well, Goose fight feels fine though), while Wes has long fights that bring alot more fun. Especially the antlion fight.

Though currently its not the characters that require rebalancing and looking into...

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Astroknot    489
7 minutes ago, Diaboliko said:

Though currently its not the characters that require rebalancing and looking into...

Have you seen Willow?

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JohnWatson    1,514
7 hours ago, Diaboliko said:

to things should be balaced around Wes. I fitediouperfectly fine in twithou boss-killing(all apart from the toad, since he is pretty fat; and queen since she's a disgusting abomination). Wolfgang is a little too strong in basic pve content. He has no troubles of killing non-raid bosses whatsoever(well, Goose fight feels fine though), while Wes has long fights that bring alot more fun. Especially the antlion fight.

Wolfgang means I get to hold F for a shorter period of time, which lets me do more things in my game other than staring at the screen and doing nothing but mashing the F key.

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Diaboliko    126
2 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

Wolfgang means I get to hold F for a shorter period of time, which lets me do more things in my game other than staring at the screen and doing nothing but mashing the F key.

It also means that hound attack becomes weaker, as well as any time-based fights like the one with antlion.

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EsaiXD    580
Posted (edited)
On 4/20/2017 at 11:40 PM, JohnWatson said:

Wolfgang is already a balanced and interesting character to play. It's just that most other characters are underpowered and have either boring or poorly-implemented mechanics.

In my opinion, Wolfgang should be the basis for balance. Not Wickerbottom, not Wigfrid, and definitely not Wilson.

 

wolfgang is still keeping his strength  but he needs more disadvantages to warrant that strength  the best character shouldnt be the 1 used to be marked for balance which is why wilson is considered the neutral party  no downsides and decent strength. 

wolfgangs downside of higher sanity loss is completely thrown away  due to the fact that he can deal with it so easily  so that is why im suggesting sanity  play a bigger role to our muscly scardy cat  since sanity is supposed to be his downside

 

Edited by EsaiXD

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JohnWatson    1,514
8 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

wolfgang is still keeping his strength  but he needs more disadvantages to warrant that strength  the best character shouldnt be the 1 used to be marked for balance which is why wilson is considered the neutral party  no downsides and decent strength. 

Wolfgang isn't the best character. And if you honestly think that Wilson is the neutral middle-ground character, then you are clearly trying to balance merely around character stats, not around the game in its entirely. Wilson may look like the middle-ground when it comes to stats, but when you factor in the entire game and all other characters, he is undoubtedly one of the worst characters.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Wilson is not balanced and therefore should not be the basis for balance.

8 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

wolfgangs downside of higher sanity loss is completely thrown away  due to the fact that he can deal with it so easily  so that is why im suggesting sanity  play a bigger role to our muscly scardy cat  since sanity is supposed to be his downside

I could agree with this, but I believe the 'Gameplay > Lore' rule. I would still be fine with standard nerfs to his sanity if it doesn't affect his fighting ability. It's not like sanity nerfs matter anyway.

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EsaiXD    580
On 4/23/2017 at 0:13 AM, JohnWatson said:

Wolfgang isn't the best character. And if you honestly think that Wilson is the neutral middle-ground character, then you are clearly trying to balance merely around character stats, not around the game in its entirely. Wilson may look like the middle-ground when it comes to stats, but when you factor in the entire game and all other characters, he is undoubtedly one of the worst characters.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Wilson is not balanced and therefore should not be the basis for balance.

I could agree with this, but I believe the 'Gameplay > Lore' rule. I would still be fine with standard nerfs to his sanity if it doesn't affect his fighting ability. It's not like sanity nerfs matter anyway.

 well if you think about it a veteran is good with any character so long you know how to play

even with wes which is stat wise the worst and the hardest to do anything with  wilson is the balance as he has no downsides while other characters are just clones of him with up and down sides

so this is why he is the 1 character the game is balanced on  and not wolfgang since wolfgang is the strong character.

based on the game as a whole you mean characters really need to 1 shot nearly everything and 30 shot bosses? that is certainly not balanced 

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JohnWatson    1,514
2 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

 well if you think about it a veteran is good with any character so long you know how to play

even with wes which is stat wise the worst and the hardest to do anything with

A veteran will still be affected by character choice. An experienced player will always and objectively play better as Wickerbottom than as Wes. That has nothing to do with the topic, anyway.

2 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

wilson is the balance as he has no downsides while other characters are just clones of him with up and down sides

so this is why he is the 1 character the game is balanced on  and not wolfgang since wolfgang is the strong character.

Again, you're trying to balance the stats, not the entirety of the game. That's not how game balance works. It's game balance, not stat balance.

If you actually analyse Wilson, you would discover that he has one of the biggest downsides ever: He's not a better character. Because of this very huge downside and because his only upside is underwhelming, he is therefore not the middle-ground of the characters.

As I said, Wilson cannot be the basis of character balance for he is not balanced to begin with. Not only is he unbalanced, he is also one of the most uninteresting and boring to play characters because of how bland his perks (or lack thereof) are.

2 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

based on the game as a whole you mean characters really need to 1 shot nearly everything and 30 shot bosses? that is certainly not balanced 

Wolfgang doesn't make the game easier, he does things faster. You could achieve what Wolfgang does as other characters if you just use your F key. If any character needs nerfing, it would be Wickerbottom and WX-78, not Wolfgang.

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EsaiXD    580
14 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

because of how bland his perks (or lack thereof) are.

that is why he is the most basic character you kinda just said it yourself i dont see why you dont think he is the 1 for balance

14 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

If you actually analyse Wilson, you would discover that he has one of the biggest downsides ever: He's not a better character. Because of this very huge downside

what downside does wilson have?  he is the basic character that has none he is a jack of all trades

 

14 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

If any character needs nerfing, it would be Wickerbottom and WX-78, not Wolfgang.

they have already nerfed wx and besides wx cant do much on his own without any other characters  at his heart he is just a tankier wilson without a beard

 

im saying wolfgangs downside of having that decreased fight time is not worthy of what he gains which is effectively why he is the best solo character.  wickers downside of no sleep kind of counters her use of books since it drains the 1 thing she finds hard to replenish.  unless you dont happen to have the masses of jerky  and honey  or a wendy to make a sanity station. which is why she is rather balanced on her own merits. that's a good aspect of balance  where your upside is actually countered by your down side. 

 

hence why i say wolfgangs upside trumps his downside as it doesnt even affect him just makes him quicker to get to magic tier. 

this is why i suggesting this change to how his sanity works makes him more balanced on his strength and his downside

 

 

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JohnWatson    1,514
12 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

that is why he is the most basic character you kinda just said it yourself i dont see why you dont think he is the 1 for balance

Thanks for quoting only a small part of my entire argument and ignoring the rest of my reasoning. I don't want to repeat myself any longer so I'd just advise you to read my entire post again.

Quote

what downside does wilson have? 

I literally just said what it is. Are you deliberately only reading only 10% of my posts?

Quote

he is the basic character that has none he is a jack of all trades

He's not a jack-of-all-trades. All he can do that other character's can't is grow a beard, which can easily be substituted by clothing and mobs that drop hair. His options are limited when compared to the rest of the characters. That is literally the exact opposite of a jack-of-all-trades.

Quote

they have already nerfed wx and besides wx cant do much on his own without any other characters  at his heart he is just a tankier wilson without a beard

im saying wolfgangs downside of having that decreased fight time is not worthy of what he gains which is effectively why he is the best solo character.

You are severely underestimating WX-78. Upgrades aren't his only perk. Also, why are you trying to balance around solo-play when this is a multiplayer game?

Quote

wickers downside of no sleep kind of counters her use of books since it drains the 1 thing she finds hard to replenish.  unless you dont happen to have the masses of jerky  and honey  or a wendy to make a sanity station. which is why she is rather balanced on her own merits. that's a good aspect of balance  where your upside is actually countered by your down side. 

Sleep is not the only way to restore sanity. Sleeping is a massive waste of time in any situation, especially since sanity can be easily restore through faster ways. Wickerbottom has effectively no downside and could farm almost everything she wants very quickly, which is why a lot of players consider her to be the most powerful character. While you're struggling to get a few blowdarts, Wickerbottom already has stacks upon stacks of it. While you're struggling to get reeds, Wickerbottom already has several chests filled to the brim with it.

Quote

hence why i say wolfgangs upside trumps his downside as it doesnt even affect him just makes him quicker to get to magic tier. 

this is why i suggesting this change to how his sanity works makes him more balanced on his strength and his downside

Admittedly, Wolfgang is stronger compared to the rest of the characters, however I believe that he's fine the way he is. It's not like he completely breaks the balance of the game because he can take down mobs with half as much swings.
Also, I think your balance suggestion would not make Wolfgang balanced, it would just make him annoying and unfun to play as. I think he should be nerfed a different way that isn't "random chance to become unresponsive to the player's commands".

As for who should be the basis of balance, I believe it's Maxwell. Maxwell is a good example of a balanced character, in my opinion. Interesting upsides that actually matter, and reasonable downsides that aren't annoying to play with.

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EsaiXD    580
13 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:
13 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

that is why he is the most basic character you kinda just said it yourself i dont see why you dont think he is the 1 for balance

Thanks for quoting only a small part of my entire argument and ignoring the rest of my reasoning. I don't want to repeat myself any longer so I'd just advise you to read my entire post again.

Quote

what downside does wilson have? 

I literally just said what it is. Are you deliberately only reading only 10% of my posts?

you didnt mention anything at all of a downside in your post

 

16 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

All he can do that other character's can't is grow a beard, which can easily be substituted by clothing and mobs that drop hair.

he can do what other characters can do  the only thing he cant do are the special powers that the other characters have  but thats what makes the other characters themselves and wilson himself  hence making him the jack of all trades no downsides no good sides just decent.

do a cave man server that doesn't allow you to have science and see if you think the same way about his beard

19 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

You are severely underestimating WX-78. Upgrades aren't his only perk. Also, why are you trying to balance around solo-play when this is a multiplayer game?

wx really need other people to be good since he can only charge himself off of moslings in spring and the occasional telelocator without wicker he has a tough time outside of spring if there is no surplus of living logs and purple gems which is only a common item in late game servers. 

Also I'm not really trying solo balance charcters I'm just trying to balance a character out that really doesn't have a downside yet has a huge upside. I know you guys really love the aspect of farming nightmare fuel and wolfgangs sanity loss is a good thing for that. so why not make his supossed down side actually affect him by making him lose out on his fighting ability. If he doesnt keep it in check?

i know you and edgy are wolfgang and wicker loyalists   I for 1 am a wendy loyalist and you guys don't even show the good sides of characters. The way the whole game works can be based off of alot of things which is kinda the argument you provide with the whole he is balanced in the game as a whole.  but as you had admited he is strong  but the downside i chose for him isnt to your liking. Why? just cause it messes with your play style of constantly stay insane and 3 shot nightmares?  Me personally playing a weak character I can see why the default damage is as it is cause it is really rather balanced.  I think you are just trying to defend your play style   by making notes on other characters.

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JohnWatson    1,514
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, EsaiXD said:

you didnt mention anything at all of a downside in your post

I think you should read my post again instead of just 10% of it.

Quote

he can do what other characters can do  the only thing he cant do are the special powers that the other characters have  but thats what makes the other characters themselves and wilson himself  hence making him the jack of all trades no downsides no good sides just decent.

What I gather from this mess of a paragraph is that you still have no idea what "jack-of-all-trades" even means. A jack-of-all-trades is someone that can do almost everything very well, but does not excel at them. Again, let's see what Wilson can do that other characters can't:

  1. Grow a beard.
  2. ...

Wow, certainly a jack-of-all-trades, he can grow a beard. That's surely worth not being able to read books, have 2x damage, run faster, gather loads of logs quickly, or upgrade your stats.

Quote

Also I'm not really trying solo balance charcters I'm just trying to balance a character out that really doesn't have a downside yet has a huge upside. I know you guys really love the aspect of farming nightmare fuel and wolfgangs sanity loss is a good thing for that. so why not make his supossed down side actually affect him by making him lose out on his fighting ability. If he doesnt keep it in check?

If it affects his fighting ability, again, that would be a dumb and annoying downside. Imagine if when Wendy spawns Abigail, Abigail has a random chance of spontaneously despawning. When Wickerbottom reads a book, the book has a random chance of turning into ash. When Webber befriends spiders, the spiders have a chance of transforming into werepigs.

Quote

i know you and edgy are wolfgang and wicker loyalists   I for 1 am a wendy loyalist and you guys don't even show the good sides of characters. The way the whole game works can be based off of alot of things which is kinda the argument you provide with the whole he is balanced in the game as a whole.  but as you had admited he is strong  but the downside i chose for him isnt to your liking. Why? just cause it messes with your play style of constantly stay insane and 3 shot nightmares?  Me personally playing a weak character I can see why the default damage is as it is cause it is really rather balanced.  I think you are just trying to defend your play style   by making notes on other characters.

God forbid that each player plays the game differently. God forbid we have characters that are actually fun to play. If you want the game to be bland, then just play Wilson yourself, no need to ruin the rest of the characters.

Edited by JohnWatson
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JohnWatson    1,514

I am convinced that Wolfgang is, indeed, very powerful. However, he isn't the absolute best character and doesn't warrant the massive nerf you are suggesting. Wolfgang already needs to shovel food down his throat every 20 seconds while fighting. Having to babysit your sanity too means he also needs to shovel cooked cacti/greencaps every 20 seconds because of an annoying downside. If Wolfgang needs a nerf, it isn't this, and it shouldn't be a nerf to his fighting ability because that defeats the point of having a damage bonus.

And before I have to repeat it again, Wilson's massive downside is his lack of upsides. His trade-offs are the other character's perks. He can't be a jack-of-all-trades if he can't do any single one of them. Most of the other characters have better perks than his beard, and they barely even have downsides. If all the characters get their downsides removed, it wouldn't actually matter that much, the game would still be mostly the same.

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DatShadowJK    874
37 minutes ago, JohnWatson said:

God forbid that each player plays the game differently. God forbid we have characters that are actually fun to play. If you want the game to be bland, then just play Wilson yourself, no need to ruin the rest of the characters.

I agree, if you want to play the game as Wilson, and NOT Wolfgang, and complain about Wolfgang needing a nerf, you DO NOT understand that every character has a downside. Some may be a bit, not harsh, but those are characters probably for those who just start the game...

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Donke60    2,255
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

When Webber befriends spiders, the spiders have a chance of transforming into werepigs.

You have to admit that would be amazing.

On another note..

I'm going to agree with John here 

I'm going to use a mod character as an example of why @EsaiXD

This character has a tired meter and when this character tired meter fills up he slows down by alot for a few seconds at a time. His speed for more of a reference is the speed of the Groggy animation so you know how slow that is. So that is as you can guess is REALLY BAD FOR COMBAT!!!. and guess what this mod character isn't good for fighting. From what I can guess from you post that would be even worse as Wolfgang Would Freeze in fights so forget about moving. Boss fights ded, fast enemies, ded.

A combat character that can't do combat yay 

Even if you constitue this as lore I would have you know that having you scared would make you fight faster and frantically so technically when Wolfgang gets scared he should do more damage and do more damage instead of freezing and running away.

Edit: Ok sry its missing and increasing sanity drain wouldn't missing shots get out of control. Why would I want to miss shots thats really bad. You don't see "wimpy" wes missing shots. If wolfgang can't hit targets then there is no point in him being in the game.



 

Edited by Donke60

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EsaiXD    580
On 4/25/2017 at 11:33 PM, JohnWatson said:

If you actually analyse Wilson, you would discover that he has one of the biggest downsides ever: He's not a better character. Because of this very huge downside and because his only upside is underwhelming, he is therefore not the middle-ground of the characters.

this is a quote of your post tell me what his downside is

 

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EsaiXD    580
7 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

I am convinced that Wolfgang is, indeed, very powerful. However, he isn't the absolute best character and doesn't warrant the massive nerf you are suggesting. Wolfgang already needs to shovel food down his throat every 20 seconds while fighting. Having to babysit your sanity too means he also needs to shovel cooked cacti/greencaps every 20 seconds because of an annoying downside. If Wolfgang needs a nerf, it isn't this, and it shouldn't be a nerf to his fighting ability because that defeats the point of having a damage bonus.

And before I have to repeat it again, Wilson's massive downside is his lack of upsides. His trade-offs are the other character's perks. He can't be a jack-of-all-trades if he can't do any single one of them. Most of the other characters have better perks than his beard, and they barely even have downsides. If all the characters get their downsides removed, it wouldn't actually matter that much, the game would still be mostly the same.

you know all of the stuff you say on how wicker is so powerful as she can just use cactus taffy or other things to disregard her downside. you can basically do the same thing with wolfgang too with the belt of hunger and the funcaps having a 65 percent hunger drain reduction   you can pretty much stay mighty the whole fight and not even have to be shoveling food into your face  and not even worry about food in fights which is why sanity needs to play a bigger role on him than it just draining more

 

7 hours ago, Donke60 said:

From what I can guess from you post that would be even worse as Wolfgang Would Freeze in fights so forget about moving. Boss fights ded, fast enemies, ded.

well no my suggestion was that he misses based on a percentaged chance on his sanity which starts when he is below 100 or maybe below 80 since that is the percent beardlords and beardlings show up  doesnt change much other than he wont hit about a forth of the time if you are fully insane

7 hours ago, Donke60 said:

Edit: Ok sry its missing and increasing sanity drain wouldn't missing shots get out of control. Why would I want to miss shots thats really bad. You don't see "wimpy" wes missing shots. If wolfgang can't hit targets then there is no point in him being in the game.

 that is the essence of his character  being the scardy cat but he has a bunch of muscle that is why the missing would some what incline him to be played more smartly rather than just mighty and mow through everything you can still do that but you have to keep an eye on another stat rather than just hunger.

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