Zeklo

Lore, From Ancients to the Fuelweaver [Theory]

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The statues are completely inorganic, there are no references to there being any kind of conversion process in existence which mummifies the ancients in Thulecite; or morphs them into it. The Fuelweaver's dialogue has already revealed that they are one of the ancients, and they look absolutely nothing like the statues either. They are likely just art, or some manner of religious symbol.

From the Curation thread.

Interpretation of where the Ancients went :

The Fuelweaver is likely what they actually were, horned beings, and the statues are either just artwork or renditions of something they saw and or worshiped. Seeing as the Fuelweaver makes explicit references to being the leader, or at least a high ranking member, of the ancients.

This is further supported by the fact that you can find fossil fragments buried all around the caves, and if you reconstruct them they form more then one different skeleton. Not just the Fuelweaver can be made, but other nameless skeletons as well. This can be interpreted to be that the ancients were scattered across the caves, possibly after the clockworks invaded or the nightmares spiraled out of control, and their remains ended up being buried in the earth. There are frequent tremors in the caves, it would not be difficult for their bodies to become submerged by falling rubble. And thus, you can find pieces of them all over; and when you rebuild their remains you can design several different models of the ancients because the remains are that of multiple beings and not just one.

Even if the other models of the odd skeleton as just mis-constructed alternate versions, the fossil fragments all can be used to repair the odd skeleton. Which means they are all bones of the same species, which would align more consistently across different skeletons. So taking out the multiple skeletons, the fact they all can be used to construct the odd skeleton proves they belong to the same species. They are all the remains of ancients.

The Fuelweaver, who is potentially their leader or a very powerful sorcerer among them, happens to be the only one you can resurrect. Possibly because of his power. And his consciousness after being revived specifically scales based on how close he is to the Ruins when it happens

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The Fuelweaver is likely what they actually were, horned beings, and the statues are either just artwork or renditions of something they saw and or worshiped. Seeing as the Fuelweaver makes explicit references to being the leader, or at least a high ranking member, of the ancients.

 This could explain the Guardian a bit, he could've been one of the Ancients. He might've just had one horn, I also think that the Guardian could've been a guard of the nightmare fuel. Maybe like a banker of nightmare fuel, or he could've guarded the ancient key. 

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16 minutes ago, The Curator said:

The statues are completely inorganic, there are no references to there being any kind of conversion process in existence which mummifies the ancients in Thulecite; or morphs them into it. 

There's no reference to them being non-organic or organic. Simply based on observation I decided, based on its texture and the quotes, for it be something real. You deciding to swing the other way is entirely valid as well. 

As far as mummification into Thulecite, yes there is no specific information stating which. That's why I looked at the context around it, with the similarities regarding the shadow creatures.

16 minutes ago, The Curator said:

The Fuelweaver's dialogue has already revealed that they are one of the ancients, and they look absolutely nothing like the statues either. They are likely just art, or some manner of religious symbol.

I have to disagree, as I stated in the video. In regard to "my world" and "this world", as also stated, "My city... in tatters..." does suggest they belonged to the ruins, but we shouldn't immediately decide that makes them an ancient—at least the same race.

17 minutes ago, The Curator said:

The Fuelweaver is likely what they actually were, horned beings, and the statues are either just artwork or renditions of something they saw and or worshiped. Seeing as the Fuelweaver makes explicit references to being the leader, or at least a high ranking member, of the ancients.

Webber clearly states the people depicted are bug people, and the statues also appear like bugs. The Fuelweaver doesn't fit that description. That doesn't mean it didn't live in the ruins though. You can be born one place and move to the next and call it its home all the same.

17 minutes ago, The Curator said:

This is further supported by the fact that you can find fossil fragments buried all around the caves, and if you reconstruct them they form more then one different skeleton. Not just the Fuelweaver can be made, but other nameless skeletons as well. This can be interpreted to be that the ancients were scattered across the caves, possibly after the clockworks invaded or the nightmares spiraled out of control, and their remains ended up being buried in the earth. There are frequent tremors in the caves, it would not be difficult for their bodies to become submerged by falling rubble. And thus, you can find pieces of them all over; and when you rebuild their remains you can design several different models of the ancients because the remains are that of multiple beings and not just one.

Even if the other models of the odd skeleton as just mis-constructed alternate versions, the fossil fragments all can be used to repair the odd skeleton. Which means they are all bones of the same species, which would align more consistently across different skeletons. So taking out the multiple skeletons, the fact they all can be used to construct the odd skeleton proves they belong to the same species. They are all the remains of ancients.

The Fuelweaver, who is potentially their leader or a very powerful sorcerer among them, happens to be the only one you can resurrect. Possibly because of his power. And his consciousness after being revived specifically scales based on how close he is to the Ruins when it happens

The fossils are in fact built incorrectly in these other forms as confirmed on stream. What your saying does make sense, but as I already said. Webber described bug people, and thus I cannot agree.

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2 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

There's no reference to them being non-organic or organic. Simply based on observation I decided, based on its texture and the quotes, for it be something real. You deciding to swing the other way is entirely valid as well. 

I have to disagree, as I stated in the video. In regard to "my world" and "this world", as also stated, "My city... in tatters..." does suggest they belonged to the ruins, but we shouldn't immediately decide that makes them an ancient—at least the same race.

Webber clearly states the people depicted are bug people, and the statues also appear like bugs. The Fuelweaver doesn't fit that description. That doesn't mean it didn't live in the ruins though. You can be born one place and move to the next and call it its home all the same.

The fossils are in fact built incorrectly in these other forms as confirmed on stream. What your saying does make sense, but as I already said. Webber described bug people, and thus I cannot agree.

If you actually mine them, they only drop nightmare fuel, gems and thulecite.

Being one of the original denizens of the world, makes them an ancient. Being one of the original denizens living with the rest of the original denizens in their original city, makes them even more of an ancient. Specifically making references to the city belonging to them, makes them even-even more of an ancient. Making specific references of kinship to the ancients, and being a powerful sorcerer of their craft of magic, makes them even-even-even more of an ancient.

As already stated, there is no evidence suggesting the statues are even real beings. They could very well be art or religious icons. There is no base or evidence to them being real. Any theory treating them as factual evidence to the existence of what they are depicting, is completely without foundation.

Already explained the counter to this, in the original reply. Literally already explained. And you are still treating the statues as if they are depicting a real species, which there is no evidence of.

 

Refusing to acknowledge the numerous facts proving the Fuelweaver is an ancient, while constantly touting the statues as a factual depiction of the ancients despite that there is zero evidence to that concept. This is a highly misguided view of the lore, especially seeing as you believe there is no evidence to the substance of the statues when you can literally mine them in-game to discover what they drop. Interest has been lost.

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19 minutes ago, Tylordian said:

 

 This could explain the Guardian a bit, he could've been one of the Ancients. He might've just had one horn, I also think that the Guardian could've been a guard of the nightmare fuel. Maybe like a banker of nightmare fuel, or he could've guarded the ancient key. 

Almost forgot to address this.

This was mentioned before at one point. The proof being that Maxwell states when examining the Guardian, how much the fuel has changed it. The guardian also bears resemblance to the odd skeleton, age and exposure to the fuel possibly accounting for the differences in appearance.

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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, The Curator said:

If you actually mine them, they only drop nightmare fuel, gems and thulecite.

I'm referring to the Atrium statues. Which cannot be mined, but show thulecite cores in the game files.

Spoiler

gA1K41F.png

 

12 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Being one of the original denizens of the world, makes them an ancient. Being one of the original denizens living with the rest of the original denizens in their original city, makes them even more of an ancient. Specifically making references to the city belonging to them, makes them even-even more of an ancient. Making specific references of kinship to the ancients, and being a powerful sorcerer of their craft of magic, makes them even-even-even more of an ancient.

I too have already stated these quotes are quite open ended, and the scenario you are putting in them is the default mindset. Which I am not disregarding. It is most easily interpreted that way, but if we only interpret in the default state and don't let out minds open for further ideas then we're limiting our own knowledge growth.

12 minutes ago, The Curator said:

As already stated, there is no evidence suggesting the statues are even real beings. They could very well be art or religious icons. There is no base or evidence to them being real. Any theory treating them as factual evidence to the existence of what they are depicting, is completely without foundation.

There's direct evidence for hardly anything. Especially if you decide to keep your focus on a single thing and not let the surrounding things clue in on the meaning of others. As I've already stated, Webber refers to the people depicted in the murals as bug people. Thus I simply decided to accept the ancients as bug people. Then it comes down to the anatomy of several types of bugs. The chitinis-looking overlapping plates on the back are an attribute of bugs. Tie the two together, and we have the statues depicting the ancients. Maxwell even quotes "A once proud race," for the normal ruins statues. To simply say they were proud due to a work of art, is entirely possible, but it's quite direct and almost implies the statue to be of this race.

12 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Refusing to acknowledge the numerous facts proving the Fuelweaver is an ancient, while constantly touting the statues as a factual depiction of the ancients despite that there is zero evidence to that concept. This is a highly misguided view of the lore, especially seeing as you believe there is no evidence to the substance of the statues when you can literally mine them in-game to discover what they drop. Interest has been lost.

Nothing is proven until it is outright said. We can prove nothing. We can only speculate. I've given several examples of my reasoning for the statues which you seem to have either missed or ignored. I'm even saying I get where your coming from, but cannot agree for xyz reasons provided. If this has lost your interest then so be it. Sadly, our attitudes appear to be incompatible. 

Edited by Zeklo
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12 minutes ago, Battal said:

I find it extraordinarily unlikely that the Ancients would fill their city to the brim with sculptures of random creatures that they in no way represent.  The mural examination quotes state that the original Ancients resembled insects or carapaced beings, which is what the statues would seem to show.  The Fuelweaver is likely possessed by one of the Ancients, but there's no evidence it shares their appearance.

 The statues could've been another race, that showed the nightmare fuel to the Ancients, or they could've been a deity of sorts

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3 minutes ago, Tylordian said:

 The statues could've been another race, that showed the nightmare fuel to the Ancients, or they could've been a deity of sorts

Let's take a closer look at the Mural quotes.  Here's the Wiki page on them:

Quote

1º Mural- Depicts an old and underdeveloped civilization, composed of Insect(or likely Arthropod) people. They live in misery, suffering from hunger and fear. All before they discovered Nightmare Fuel

2º Mural- Something mysterious happens to said civilization. No character is able to decipher what is depicted.

3º Mural- Depicts the Nightmare Fuel taking upon the civilization, drowning it in darkness and giving the people enviable power.

4º Mural- Depicts the people shedding their skins and leaving their external body. Changing completely their appearance.

5º Mural- Depicts a massively advanced civilization, with high technology and prosperity. All the problems seem to be solved. This appears to be after the Nightmare Fuel and the advent of the Thulecite and before their eventual destruction due to the overuse of the same fuel.

This would seem to suggest the Fuel forcibly took over the race, rather than the substance merely being introduced to them.  Perhaps their shed exoskeletons were turned into art and statues, maybe as a way to remember their old selves - or as a reminder of the pathetic existence they had escaped.

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Posted (edited)

You know, something regarding the Ancient guardian hit me actually. With the prefab name being "Minotaur" and having to go through a labyrinth to to get to it... Well the parallels are obvious there yeah?

Well... that story is Greek...

Prometheus is also a Greek story... it might not be as far fetched as I originally thought...

Edited by Zeklo
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Posted (edited)

I have a feeling the atrium was a sacred place, already there when the ancients got there (basically the ancient gateway should be called the more ancient that ancient gateway) that's why it was filled with the old statues, before they shed their skin, it felt like a place where they got their fuel, where they found Them. This can go off into two different timelines.

A)The bugs fell, then the endoskeleton people arrived, they tried to do everything to stop the power of Them, they created clockworks, and had a guardian and a fuel weaver. Their race fell because of the onslaught of the nightmares of the previous race. They die off, and the clockworks become corrupted and destroyed by the nightmares and the fuel except the guardian, who continues to protect, Maxwell probably arrives right after the guardian is the only one left, still normal, the guardian tells the tale, he tells Maxwell to block it, he does. And the guardian slowly becomes the hairy dude, forgetting Maxwell.

B)The exoskeleton people loved the power and used it everywhere.The endoskeleton people on the other hand, were smarter, seeing that using it had a price whereas they tried to tell the bugs but they didn't listen. It can go off to two places from here:

1) The bugs civilization falls to the nightmares, the endoskeleton people tried to do everything to stop the power of them, They created clockworks, their race fell because of the onslaught of the nightmares of the previous race. They die off, and the clockworks become corrupted and destroyed by the nightmares and the fuel except the guardian, who continues to protect, Maxwell probably arrives right after the guardian is the only one left, still normal, the guardian tells the tale, he tells Maxwell to block it, he does. And the guardian slowly becomes the hairy dude, forgetting Maxwell.

2)The two races fight, the endoskeletons get control of the atrium and labyrinth. The guardian keeps the key, the fuel weaver closes the portal and the endoskeleton people fight off the bugs, now nightmares. They created clockworks, their race fell because of the onslaught of the nightmares. They die off, and the clockworks become corrupted and destroyed by the nightmares and the fuel except the guardian, who continues to protect, Maxwell probably arrives right after the guardian is the only one left, still normal, the guardian tells the tale, he tells Maxwell to block it, he does. And the guardian slowly becomes the hairy dude, forgetting Maxwell.

What do you guys think happened?

 

At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

Edited by Spaartan
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Posted (edited)

(People posting before me! At least it ain't a double post then eh?)

So a friend brought up that the "Lend me your power, one last time," may be referring to the Woven Shadows that they summon, and not whatever lies on the other side of the gate. Sooooo.... I took a looksie and noticed something.

stalker_minion_idle.gif.275862fa93f5df4estalker_minion2_idle.gif.b370e78b6b3f89f

Hands and faces.

Now applying it to theory, immediately I knew one hole this could plug.

2peE1R9.png

The spines, the large mouth, the thin base. It all works, but then there was the hands. They just... aren't there...

Perhaps a bit more of a stretch is this...

RzV1Teq.png

I've always been curious about this. They look similar, but the atrium one lacks a face... it does have teeth tho.

(Still don't know what to make of the recurring strange brown substance)

Edited by Zeklo
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9 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

(Still don't know what to make of the recurring strange brown substance)

Its probably pre-shedded bug people

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WAIIIT, RzV1Teq.pngWHAT IS HE HOLDING?!

WILL WE NEED TO PUT SOMETHING THERE? THERE ARE THREE RIGHT? MAYBE WE KILL 3 BOSSES TO FILL EACH STATUE??!!

IAMHPYED

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Posted (edited)

21 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I've always been curious about this. They look similar, but the atrium one lacks a face... it does have teeth tho.

(Still don't know what to make of the recurring strange brown substance)

11 minutes ago, Spaartan said:

Its probably pre-shedded bug people

I don't know how I forgot to mention...

The Nightmare fuel appears to be "devolving" the ancient's forms but inversely, evolving their minds...

We see that the original depiction of the ancients were more, for a lack of a better word, "dapper" than the atrium forms... which would mean that from the more sophisticated forms, the nightmare fuel "devolved" their forms into that of a more nightmarish state, growing spines on their backs, the faces receding into their bodies and ultimately, hardening and shedding its skin and (as stated in a quote of monsters bursting out of them) coming out as the nightmare creatures... as with the evolutionary process seen in the real world, snakes used to have limbs which receded back as time passed; we would explain why the arms are not present in the terror beaks...

EDIT:

Quote

WILL WE NEED TO PUT SOMETHING THERE? THERE ARE THREE RIGHT? MAYBE WE KILL 3 BOSSES TO FILL EACH STATUE??!!

Or he could be looking at his hands saying "what have we done?" but then again, it changes to a form where it's raising up nightmare fuel so there's that...

Edited by Asparagus
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3 minutes ago, Spaartan said:

WAIIIT, WHAT IS HE HOLDING?!

WILL WE NEED TO PUT SOMETHING THERE? THERE ARE THREE RIGHT? MAYBE WE KILL 3 BOSSES TO FILL EACH STATUE??!!

IAMHPYED

The thulecite statues will carrying gems in the sockets on occasion, and the atrium ones, during a nightmare cycle, hold up their hands holding nightmare fuel.

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2 minutes ago, Asparagus said:

I don't know how I forgot to mention...

The Nightmare fuel appears to be "devolving" the ancient's forms but inversely, evolving their minds...

We see that the original depiction of the ancients were more, for a lack of a better word, "dapper" than the atrium forms... which would mean that from the more sophisticated forms, the nightmare fuel "devolved" their forms into that of a more nightmarish state, growing spines on their backs, the faces receding into their bodies and ultimately, hardening and shedding its skin and (as stated in a quote of monsters bursting out of them) coming out as the nightmare creatures... as with the evolutionary process seen in the real world, snakes used to have limbs which receded back as time passed; we would explain why the arms are not present in the terror beaks...

 

I have a feeling it is the other way around, they were very low people, looking like rags (A tortured soul? Because they were in the brink of death, low food, civilization, everything). They praised, Them, thus arms raised, to offer tribute. They became more advanced, enter thulecite form, then nightmare form where the nightmares inside come out

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Posted (edited)

Marvelously detailed, Zeklo

Congratulations.

P.S I think your theory is correct, you've connected all the dots together.

Edited by mathem99
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