y3kcjd5

Voltage/current for better power management

24 posts in this topic

With the new patch we get Heavi-Watt wire for running more power in our grids, but it's still pretty wimpy when you consider running a large system (e.g. a thermo chain). I suggest changing the limit on wires to current, not wattage, and adding a transformer structure to multiply voltage while dividing current (or vice versa depending on orientation). This would allow us to better scale power systems (as well as provide compartmentalization nodes in grids for better evaluation of power loading) and also introduce some "interesting" modes of failure; devices provided insufficient voltage can simply not work, and those provided too high a voltage can blow up! This doesn't have to be a very involved system; devices can remain with just a wattage listing, transformers can be fixed at a 2x or 4x multiplier, and even voltage values can be treated as multiples of a standard value, but I think this would add a lot of depth and some much needed flexibility to power systems.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes this! The game currently gives us no way to manage power other than switches. We just have to use heavy for everything or our grids burn out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along.

 

wire_current_load.jpg

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along.

Since the game is abstracted, it is unclear whether these circuits are in series or parallel, isn't it? If in series, this wouldn't be true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your frustration with the current system. It's not perfect it could probably be improved but at the risk of sounding dumb any more complexity would require clear explanation imo as I'm sure many are not familiar with electricity physics. So the system should remain intuitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that this is a game played on a computer (or similar electronic device) I think it not unreasonable to expect players to have at least a basic grasp of the relationship between current, voltage, and power; given this, a one-sentence description of a transformer's behavior should suffice. Even if this is not the case I'm sure that the majority would value the scaling flexibility over the (slightly) steeper learning curve, and if a few appliances get esploded in the process, so be it. This game is already riddled with mechanics that have to be discovered largely through trial and error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just because you play on something with electricity and hightech, doesnt mean an understandig of it… work some time in IT support and you will doubt any human intelligence at all ^^

when you plan ahead and build individual systems than individual curcuits are not so problematic.. maybe 4kw heavy wire for easier play..

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'm unfortunately well acquainted with the dregs of IT support (on both sides), but I trust that those looking to play this game seek some modicum of intellectual challenge; were this game marketing towards said lowest common denominator it would be called Pong.

I'm aware that it is possible to accomplish most tasks with separate circuits, but that simply involves a lot of space, resources, and busywork keeping power distributions balanced. The whole point of electrical grids is to centralize control of power for scalability.

By this token, simply increasing the wattage of Heavi-Watt wire isn't really a solution; it's not scalable. I guarantee you that people will come right back with complaints that their 15-thermo-24-heater power system is a massive PITA to set up.

Keep in mind that the transformer would simply be an option. Those who don't understand or can't be bothered with it can go right on using separate circuits or conserving power. If consistency is an issue, put everything in terms of current. If no transformers are used to change voltage, it will behave exactly the same as wattage does now.

For example, have devices listed as 1.2 Amps (100 Volts), 2.4 Amps (100 Volts), 4 Amps (100 Volts) etc. This should make the system both intuitive and familiar (see fine print on any power brick), as well as make explaining the transformer a lot easier.

Edited by y3kcjd5
math & grammar fail
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 19/03/2017 at 4:30 AM, Kruleworld said:

I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along.

 

wire_current_load.jpg

At first i thought it works like that but apparently i was wrong. Since this is how it is in real life :)

Edited by cpy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cpy said:

At first i thought it works like that but apparently i was wrong. Since this is how it is in real life :)

For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills:

BPaEDCL.png

Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Untitled.pngpfft noobs

 

Edited by AlexRou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Kasuha said:

For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills:

BPaEDCL.png

Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case.

 

Uhh let me grab my calculator. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Again, I dispute that that's "how it is in real life." It is like that in real life IF you have them wired in a parallel circuit. If you have the wired in series, however, then the current drain will be uniform across all sections of wire (it might be the case that the specific numbers in game support neither, I'm only going off the MS paint drawings in this thread).

One might argue that the dupes would be idiots to do that, but "dupes are idiots" is not exactly a failsafe argument for something not being true, if you've spent much time watching dupes :)

Edited by Crimeo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we can safely surmise from the way multiple devices can be safely connected/disconnected from the circuit (within power loading limits) that these circuits are parallel, not series. If these were series circuits, for example, you shouldn't be able to add 6 batteries or hamster wheels to a circuit with a fridge without blowing it up, since that would mean that the fridge is suddenly receiving 6x the voltage.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 21/03/2017 at 9:17 AM, Kasuha said:

For trivial cases, it is obvious. Now prove your skills:

BPaEDCL.png

Note: from in-game designs point of view this is actually still trivial case.

 

My game looks like that as i thought it might distribute the load, but even the little connectors from the grid to the device was overloading! It's based on total load across the entire circuit.

what we probably need is a circuit breaker. overload happens, it trips and must be reset. you could set it between two circuits. if it overloads, one circuit is disconnected.

Edited by Kruleworld
added more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been decades since I covered electricity in school and it's rarely cropped up since.

I had to search the definition of Joules and Watts when I started playing. I like that this game can be educational in that way.

Even now I don't quite understand the -100W requirement on the battery. It's probably something really simple I'm missing.

In this example I have 13 batteries and an oxygen maker on one hamster wheel and everything is running fine. Like I say I'm probably just being dumb.

 

power.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my experience playing the game, power is distributed evenly everywhere at once and all at the same time. This does make it easier for people who aren't so well versed in the Electrical world and it does allow us to place anything practically anywhere making it pretty easy to distribute power anywhere in the base.

457140_20170323224013_1.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The all-as-one evaluation method of wire loading currently used is very simple on smaller scales and computationally very inexpensive, but fails completely and absolutely above the loading limit for the same reason. Realistically, only the relevant paths between power sources and sinks should be loaded:

On 2017/3/18 at 11:30 PM, Kruleworld said:

I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along.

 

wire_current_load.jpg

but as further discussion demonstrated this can quickly get complicated and/or computationally expensive depending on the circuit. This is partly why I like the idea of transformers (and putting things in terms of current/voltage) a lot. For those in need of more powerful (haha) options the transformer allows transmission of higher powers through a single electrically connected grid, while current behavior is preserved perfectly if they aren't used. Computationally, it's effectively as cheap as the current system, since the transformers just chop the grid up into sub-nets of connected wire that can be evaluated separately the same way they are now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2017 at 6:30 AM, Kruleworld said:

I don't like the overload system as it's currently set up. if i have a heavy load on one wire, it affects all branches of the network of cables. it should be based on what is drawn from the cable instead. For example, if i have one pump on it's own, it's 120w is drawn on that wire, but if i add six other devices, that should affect the wire to the point where they are connected, and not affecting the wire further along.

 

wire_current_load.jpg

BTW this picture is also wrong 8)

Wire pieces to load should be also yellow 8)

http://tinyurl.com/kfwsvsl

 

Screenshot 2017-03-25 18.51.31.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, D_x said:

BTW this picture is also wrong 8)

Well, maybe, but the game doesn't show amps, so i have no idea if it calculates that.

My point was, that at the moment, the game shows "3A" on all wires, rather than stacking the load up for each device. it just assumes max amps across the whole circuit, so you can't use heavy wire for the main line and normal wire for the device connections, as the normal wires will overload. (IRL the wire coming into your house is a lot heavier gauge than the one used to plug in your toaster)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand it may be hard to code proper node-based, Kirchhoff-law-compatible electricity system. But why then they just added stuff, that require such system to have any sense? They just added a annoying feature, that just have no sense in current game development stage...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kruleworld said:

...the game shows "3A" on all wires...

Yes yes, that is the problem.

Wiring is oversimplified.

And the whole idea of showing things like http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html is that not that hard to do it right. And not so resource taxing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPICE

SPICE (Simulation Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) is a general-purpose, open source analog electronic circuit simulator.

40 years ago computers was not so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

40? More like 20 or so. I'm only 41 and remember a time when those 386 and 486 MHz computers existed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now