Lwolf

Nuclear power

65 posts in this topic

So I have a reactor proposal:

Ores generate low amounts or radiation, nothing that will kill you unless you're standing there for a long time.

There is a building that takes the ores and refines it and you have to dispose of the waste.

There is a building that takes the refined ores and generate a fk ton of radiation.

There is a building that turns radiation into energy.

There are radiation blocker tiles and doors.

Constant supply of water would be required to cool the buildings and it could either make steam or radiation contaminated water.

There is no way of cleaning radiation.

Shutting down and entering the reactor chamber should be extremely hard to do without exploding so people have to design failsafes for everything. 

 

So this is the rough outline of a reactor system you have to build and design yourself, there are still some details to be worked out but I think it kinda works and make things interesting.

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Posted (edited)

Here is my proposal :

Make the nuclear reactor end game research, an achievement to aim for.

Requirements : cold water + Radium (present in certain biomes ? low radioactivity)

Effects : power + steam + highly radioactive waste

  • The waste needs to be stored in a special container to minimize radioactivity.
  • The reactor and container should be built inside a room made of a special material (maybe Abyssalite ?) that limits radioactivity.
  • A new device that works similarly to the thermal regulator but for liquids.
  • An upgrade to the reactor could allow it to take in contaminated water to turn it into steam + polluted dirt.
  • A radioactivity map overlay with low (yellow) and high (red) levels.
  • Hazmat suits to protect Dupes when they go dig Radium or enter the nuclear room / handle waste.
  • A new medicinal plant can be grown and processed into medicine to heal radiation.

Dupes have a certain tolerance to radiation when exposed that level increases and they get stressed. It can be decreased by taking medicine but beyond a certain point they get permanently irradiated/sick. If that happens they get a permanent debuff (like -10 on all attributes) they will have to keep taking the medicine regularly or their health will go down and eventually they will die. If exposed to high radioactivity the effect is multiplied by 3.

If the highly radioactive material is carried out of the nuclear room it emits a trail that will harm Dupes and kill plants. Will require many cycles to disappear.

 

Pros :

  • Large amount of power with minimal amount of fuel.
  • Water turns into steam which can be turned back into water (there should be no loss).
  • Cleaning of contaminated water with the advanced generator.

Cons :

  • The scarcity of that special material that is used to make the reactor, the container and the room means you have to use it carefully or you will face radiation issues.
  • The possibility of a breakdown if the reactor isn't cooled properly with water. When that happens then high radioactivity occurs which slowly travels through everything until fixed.
  • Highly radioactive waste that will remain so for thousands of cycles.
  • Radioactivity is SCARY and can kill !
Edited by PickPay

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I dont like creating steam since there is already geysers for that, so why build all that when you can just collect steam from them and use the steam generator.

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21 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

I dont like creating steam since there is already geysers for that, so why build all that when you can just collect steam from them and use the steam generator.

By the way I clearly built upon what you suggested and what others have said before. It was just my version of this idea.

Steam is just the logical output, the point is not to use the nuclear plant to generate steam.

What do you mean by steam generators ?

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Just now, PickPay said:

By the way I clearly built upon what you suggested and what others have said before. It was just my version of this idea.

Steam is just the logical output, the point is not to use the nuclear plant to generate steam.

What do you mean by steam generators ?

Sorry I read your post wrong and thought you were generating steam to be sent to generators that eat steam and make power :p 

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4 hours ago, AlexRou said:

Sorry I read your post wrong and thought you were generating steam to be sent to generators that eat steam and make power :p 

Ah yea, improved formatting, should be easier to read ;)

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Love the concept of radiation poisoning.  However, people seem to be ignoring a huge issue with implementing something like this right now...we already have an endless supply of steam that is naturally generated.  There would be no good reason to subject yourself to radiation to produce steam, when the map already generates it en mass.

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Just now, Ecu said:

Love the concept of radiation poisoning.  However, people seem to be ignoring a huge issue with implementing something like this right now...we already have an endless supply of steam that is naturally generated.  There would be no good reason to subject yourself to radiation to produce steam, when the map already generates it en mass.

If you've read my post, my reactor doesnt use steam to generate power. It runs on radiation and you'll have to design your own reactor. So it would be a crazy hard thing to do and only something experienced players would even try. If you don't want to go that route since ores don't generate much radiation alone the game is still pretty playable.

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2 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

If you've read my post, my reactor doesnt use steam to generate power. It runs on radiation and you'll have to design your own reactor. So it would be a crazy hard thing to do and only something experienced players would even try. If you don't want to go that route since ores don't generate much radiation alone the game is still pretty playable.

What purpose would this have over just using water to generate oxygen/hydrogen and then fueling hydrogen generators?  We have unlimited water currently at a rather high rate.  If this produces power but with horrible waste that is useless, it seems rather pointless to build over just building more electrolyzers and hydrogen generators.

Mind you, as I've stated the entire time, I love the idea of setting up a nuclear facility as I feel it could be a rather interesting challenge.  However, the way the game has been designed currently, there doesn't really seem to be a place for this.

Additionally, nuclear reactors don't actually run on radiation.  They heat up water due to the nuclear reaction and said steam turns turbines which actually produce power.  This is why people suggested implementing a reactor alongside a steam turbine to produce power.  If this did actually run on the radiation itself, it should not produce radioactive waste.

What I could maybe see regarding this is some odd reactor as a boiler that takes in contaminated water and outputs steam and radioactive waste.  Said waste could then be processed into dirt/sand through other means.  This would give us a reasonable method to boil contaminated water using extreme technology, as well as renew dirt/sand.  However, it should definitely not produce power on its own then.

To add a steam turbine along with this to actually produce the power, you would really need to completely nerf steam geysers.  As there would be no solid reason not to just hook the steam geyser to the turbines instead.

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Just now, Ecu said:

What purpose would this have over just using water to generate oxygen/hydrogen and then fueling hydrogen generators?  We have unlimited water currently at a rather high rate.  If this produces power but with horrible waste that is useless, it seems rather pointless to build over just building more electrolyzers and hydrogen generators.

Mind you, as I've stated the entire time, I love the idea of setting up a nuclear facility as I feel it could be a rather interesting challenge.  However, the way the game has been designed currently, there doesn't really seem to be a place for this.

Additionally, nuclear reactors don't actually run on radiation.  They heat up water due to the nuclear reaction and said steam turns turbines which actually produce power.  This is why people suggested implementing a reactor alongside a steam turbine to produce power.  If this did actually run on the radiation itself, it should not produce radioactive waste.

What I could maybe see regarding this is some odd reactor as a boiler that takes in contaminated water and outputs steam and radioactive waste.  Said waste could then be processed into dirt/sand through other means.  This would give us a reasonable method to boil contaminated water using extreme technology, as well as renew dirt/sand.  However, it should definitely not produce power on its own then.

To add a steam turbine along with this to actually produce the power, you would really need to completely nerf steam geysers.  As there would be no solid reason not to just hook the steam geyser to the turbines instead.

"nuclear reactors don't actually run on radiation" Thats the lousy current tech :P, the really efficient reactors would use the particles emitted to generate electricity somehow. I mean the game's technically sci-fi. Just trying to find a way where it doesn't become a steam generator and you have to design it.

It would need rebalancing with the rest of the game sure ... its one of those "I want it in the game, now just to figure out how"

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1 minute ago, AlexRou said:

"nuclear reactors don't actually run on radiation" Thats the lousy current tech :P, the really efficient reactors would use the particles emitted to generate electricity somehow. I mean the game's technically sci-fi. Just trying to find a way where it doesn't become a steam generator and you have to design it.

It would need rebalancing with the rest of the game sure ... its one of those "I want it in the game, now just to figure out how"

As far as I am concerned, when you have to intentionally throw away intuitive concept to be able to make something fit, it probably isn't going to.  The thing that makes the most sense regarding nuclear power is using a reactor to generate steam and using steam to generate power.  This makes sense from a realistic abstraction sense, and from an in-game sense (as it would create multiple steps that are required to create power).  However, it just wouldn't be practical in the current game to do this.

It would be feasible maybe, if they completely nerfed steam geysers and primarily had them generate water rather than steam.  Even then though...you're talking about setting up a process that takes water, produces steam and radiation and then turns said steam into power.  Whereas you can currently take water, produce oxygen and hydrogen and produce power.  It seems rather silly to expose your people to radiation when the alternative use for water as fuel only gives positives.

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Posted (edited)

How about a fusion reactor then, tons of power, hard as hell to do and little to no radiation. 

For fusion you use magnets to control the super heated plasma to keep it away from the walls or it melts everything. And you have to figure out where and how to place them so it doesn't blow up. So you make a looped tunnel with some one tile magnets around it that require constant power and some way to create the plasma and collect energy from it. And the amount of energy scales with the size of the loop.

It could even tie in to a end game goal that requires a ton of power.

Edited by AlexRou

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Nuclear energy sounds fun :) 

Maybe some radiation-resistant suits would help against the harmful effects of uranium. Although gotta consider the nature of radiation.

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, AlexRou said:

How about a fusion reactor then, tons of power, hard as hell to do and little to no radiation. 

For fusion you use magnets to control the super heated plasma to keep it away from the walls or it melts everything. And you have to figure out where and how to place them so it doesn't blow up. So you make a looped tunnel with some one tile magnets around it that require constant power and some way to create the plasma and collect energy from it. And the amount of energy scales with the size of the loop.

It could even tie in to a end game goal that requires a ton of power.

Fusion reactors still capture energy in the form of heat, converting said energy to electricity via steam.  So, essentially this would just remove the challenge of radiation.  The issues I've already brought up still apply.  To be honest, given the current design of the game, a reactor like this is better used as a means to heat up gas/liquid rather than an actual power source itself.

Edited by Ecu

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I've been thinking this over since my last post.  Perhaps it could still work, just not as many people have thought of here.

My thoughts are that a reactor could essentially be a superheating device.  It would require a small amount of power to run (to allow for control of the reactor).  Beyond that, it would do nothing else on it's own, just heat up the surrounding environment to extreme temperature (1000 degrees or more even).  Multiple reactors could be used to increase the speed in which the temperature heats up.  Reactors would be able to operate while submerged, but it wouldn't be a requirement.

To complement such a reactor, you would of course implement a steam turbine as well.  Since geysers provide so much steam/water, such turbine would not provide a ton of power and instead would predominantly be used to cool steam back into water (power being just a bonus).

Doing it this way would make a reactor extremely useful towards manipulating the physics system primarily.  It could indeed be used as a power system, but to establish an efficient system would be quite challenging.

I don't think radiation needs to be represented as a new system regarding this.  Instead, perhaps within a reasonable area around the reactor, water/oxygen/dirt/etc. become contaminated.  This would keep with the abstract contamination aspect already in the game.

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I like the superheating element… so like a superficial "magma" replacement maybe with same results as that. Surroundig area could also transform like near Magma from slime to dirt to sand and so forth.

Respective the style: i like the "dirty" variant over cleaner versions like fusion.. yes, it is the future, but the game uses very oldschool designs and tech, so regarding keeping the spirit I really love the presented scribble/drawing.

To get it high tech you need to use high temperature material to build it (like a super gold amalgum or something different), else it melts down instantly…

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On 3/18/2017 at 2:09 AM, Ecu said:

As far as I am concerned, when you have to intentionally throw away intuitive concept to be able to make something fit, it probably isn't going to.  The thing that makes the most sense regarding nuclear power is using a reactor to generate steam and using steam to generate power.  This makes sense from a realistic abstraction sense, and from an in-game sense (as it would create multiple steps that are required to create power).  However, it just wouldn't be practical in the current game to do this.

It would be feasible maybe, if they completely nerfed steam geysers and primarily had them generate water rather than steam.  Even then though...you're talking about setting up a process that takes water, produces steam and radiation and then turns said steam into power.  Whereas you can currently take water, produce oxygen and hydrogen and produce power.  It seems rather silly to expose your people to radiation when the alternative use for water as fuel only gives positives.

Did you read my post at the top of this page ? The game balance can completely change with the next patch as it happened with Thermal Update providing unlimited water. If Geysers were nerfed, Nuclear Power as I described it with interesting mechanics could be a great addition to the end game.

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I switch off for a few days and come back to pure genius replies 

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6 hours ago, PickPay said:

Did you read my post at the top of this page ? The game balance can completely change with the next patch as it happened with Thermal Update providing unlimited water. If Geysers were nerfed, Nuclear Power as I described it with interesting mechanics could be a great addition to the end game.

Yes, I'm well aware that the game balance could change quite easily.  It is only in alpha development, after all.

However, many systems currently do exist that inhibit the idea of using reactors as a high end power source.  A first one is indeed the idea that steam is already extremely easy to acquire with no drawbacks.  A second would be that wires currently would break at such high power levels.  A third is that the demand on power isn't high enough in the game to warrant such a high power source.  A fourth would be that electrolyzer/hydrogen generator systems already provide solid power with no drawbacks.  All of these make the idea of nuclear power, focused on power, a poor decision.

However, I do really love the concept of building such a reactor with simple mechanics.  As such I already proposed the idea that instead of focusing it on power generation, focus it on heat generation.  Essentially the reactor is just super high heat generator you can turn on and off.  You could add steam turbines alongside it, however, make them inefficient power generators used to essentially cool steam back to water (with the power generation being a bonus, rather than a focus).

We currently lack a good method to generate extremely high temperatures.  The physics system is one of the more interesting aspects of this game and as such a tool like this would be extremely beneficial.

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On 3/17/2017 at 5:41 PM, Mishi21 said:

ONI Idées - Réacteur nucléaire + Schemas.jpg

And it could more "funnier" if the reactor fails ;)

Those are some nice drawings , really cute too with the \o/ URANIUM

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On 3/17/2017 at 11:48 PM, Mishi21 said:

Yeah ! I've been thinking about this :D Radiation shielding ! But I don't know if it would be better to make a new post about Radiation or to continue on this current post...

Yeah, radiation can be a fun element for late late game, taking in the hydrogen generator and coal generator as a factor, nuclear plant emit radiation wave that cause fatal illness, which requires careful protection for operator dupes and even the digger dupes, the rare element is needed to build it (encourage player to explore and dig out uranium), it should be more sustainable and better energy than coal generator as it wont consume resource (like coal) but emits more heat than coal generator (need coolant). So much fun!

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On 10/03/2017 at 5:03 PM, Bloc97 said:

Nuclear power would be way too overpowered, unless we are talking about RTGs.

Producing 20kW of power non stop for 1 year with 100kg of uranium would completely unbalance the game.

Unless if things get very complicated and you have to design the reactor manually. But placing a "nuclear reactor" down seems to be a very lazy way of getting power...

Producing 200kW for 30 cycles with 100kg and now with heat update... man that would be melting and radioactive waste. You'd die if you touch it and can make large areas unusable because if you don't store it in your last water pool you'd die! :D

Melting everything!

Edited by cpy
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Maybe make it some low tier ore? So it would just produce ~1000W for 10 cycles. Like mixture of uranium oxide, thorium oxide, some rare earth crap... Placing a ready reactor is OK with me, but well, it would sure need a pool for cooling used ore. And radioactive water should be not reusable before radiating everything out. And a robot arm, please!

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This would require an overhaul of all existing power systems, more specifically the coal generator.  First of all, coal generators don't generate power from just burning coal; the burnt coal vaporizes steam to turn a generator that then makes power.  Which is why having coal generators make so much freaking heat totally nonsense; coal generators should be fed water and output steam and energy, while remaining at a more or less constant temperature.  Sure, inefficiencies in the machine would lead to the gradual warming of the coal generator, but it's not like all the heat from burning coal is radiating out from the machine.  You're basically losing all the energy from burning coal in the first place!  Once this has been addressed, then we can have a frame work for nuclear power, which is just advanced coal burning.

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