What kind of a drawback would the community want for Willow?

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

Probably the most controversial character, mechanically speaking, being begged to have various previous or new buffs being added to her to not be so darn useless (two people triggered already) and not that fun to play either (five people triggered now).

I'm all for her having Bernie, her Lighter and fire immunity as boons for certain reasons, however, if those were to be changed to be very cool and very good boons to make her a wantable character, both individually and in relation to other players, what kind of drawbacks exactly should she have then? Most, if not all characters who have special boons have certain disadvantages to them in some form as well, at the very least in single player, so, if the aforementioned three things are her pros, what should be her cons or at least one con? Because it would make her probably the most unbalanced character, or "OP", so to speak if she just has  pretty good buffs, but no drawbacks, as if were to be an improved Wilson in a way (aside from the beard).

Two ideas I had were:

1) Bring her "lights things on fire when nervous" or even expand on that (e.g. lighting things on fire when losing a lot of sanity even if insane in some form, lighting fires when she's about to be attacked by charlie occasionally or every time).

2) Make her more vulnerable to freezing in general, but make her much more resilient, if not immune, to heat.

 

Because I've heard people being disappointingly pissed from her just freezing-when-insane ordeal and I can kind of agree with that and it seems like a little bit of 'thrown in there just for "chalunj"' type of a thing. Although, the first of the above can cause issues of base burning again early game, without any good preventions, unless you anticipate it beforehand and the second one, I feel kind of "meh" about and not that it would be something really fitting for her.

May be you guys have better ideas for her drawbacks. Or perhaps you have some good pros that subsequently provide some good drawbacks or make certain "meh" kind of drawbacks more fitting?

[thistownneedsguns]

i think her lighter could get a buff.. its nice to cook things but you don't need it later, just the first days. 

i would like to see that the lighter spends more light when she is using it.. so she doesn't even need to craft a lantern instead. 

[Sinister_Fang]

20 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

2) Make her more vulnerable to freezing in general

I like this. It kinda reworks her current disadvantage into something a bit more manageable instead of just crippling her when she's low on sanity. Although the problem I see here is that the con would only be a major concern during winter. So she'd be that unbalanced, op character the rest of the year.

25 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

1) Bring her "lights things on fire when nervous" or even expand on that (e.g. lighting things on fire when losing a lot of sanity even if insane in some form, lighting fires when she's about to be attacked by charlie occasionally or every time).

This, however, is not something I agree with. That was removed because it would cause too many issues with people accidentally griefing. Willow already has a bit of a stigma and keeping that ability would just make it worse. I mean, using Willow is bad enough as it is with her reputation as a pyromaniac. If someone sets the camp on fire, any Willow players are the first to be blamed. I think this would just end up as Willow being underused again due to a lot of people insta-kicking Willows.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

4 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

1) I like this. It kinda reworks her current disadvantage into something a bit more manageable instead of just crippling her when she's low on sanity. Although the problem I see here is that the con would only be a major concern during winter. So she'd be that unbalanced, op character the rest of the year.

2) This, however, is not something I agree with. That was removed because it would cause too many issues with people accidentally griefing. Willow already has a bit of a stigma and keeping that ability would just make it worse. I mean, using Willow is bad enough as it is with her reputation as a pyromaniac. If someone sets the camp on fire, any Willow players are the first to be blamed. I think this would just end up as Willow being underused again due to a lot of people insta-kicking Willows.

1) Not exactly... End of autumn and the beginning of Spring, plus, the wetness of the rain if you get too soaked would all often induce freezing for normal characters if left without any heat for at least a little while. This means that, at best, we're looking at half of the year being where her weakness really pawns her, although yes, full winter would probably be the time where her drawback would be quite daunting for players who play as her, although that might just be enough to really put a point on her drawback as a challenge to overcome.

I see there being two approaches to this; she could simply lose temperature about twice as fast as other characters or she could have the freezing point of her character put higher (might cause issues a little with thermal stones, although that could be tweaked in some way). Or, perhaps both, or something in-between if one's not enough?

2) My thoughts exactly...

[Tumalu]

Yeah, insanity fires should not return; it just means no one else wants you around, period. However Willow does need tweaking.

Her freezing thing is arguably one of her better perks right now since it's also summer resist, but since it can also bite you in the butt, it's a thing. I actually do think it's pretty cool as-is, but the issue is none of her benefits feel interesting enough to justify HAVING a drawback, either. Bernie is -okay-, sanity from fire is -okay-, summer resist is actually kinda nice but it's already got built-in drawbacks to balance it out with the freezing and needing low sanity to use it. She adds up to a character who's good at managing sanity, and actually benefits from her low max, but none of them exactly make me interested in playing her despite liking Willow as a character a lot.

I feel like "cool things for being on low sanity" could be built upon, or alternatively, she could be buffed some, e.g. make her lighter actually not irrelevant after the first few days. Bernie could also be more interesting if it just activated when nightmares popped up instead of requiring insanity, so that it was more helpful in the ruins where nightmares show up regardless of circumstance. You can just eat a green cap or monster meat to kill your sanity on purpose and it becomes better, but killing your sanity isn't exactly "better" either... actually, you'd probably just freeze if you did.

For a lot of people, nightmares are a non-issue. Especially in Together, if anyone helps you out, nightmares are SUPER easy to fight because they're stunlocked the whole time. Bernie isn't useless, but other than newbies, he mostly only comes into play if you're either insane -and- in the ruins, or you're insane with no friends to help you, which might not be often for DST. (and on second thought, half of the game, Bernie is just saving you from the fact that you're also freezing while insane)

I think Bernie's existence to help with fighting nightmares could be more interesting if Willow was a more insanity-based character somehow. She already sorta is, but more perks when being insane could be neat- or some sort of ability that drains her sanity to use? (Some kind of lighter attack? Light nightmare fuel on fire with it?)

She's got enough stuff as it is to be very unique but most of the stuff isn't really good enough to want to play her.

[minespatch]

Maybe there can be a spiritual element with Bernie. Maybe to avoid enemies, her soul could move into Bernie for a short amount of time? IT would help avoid hounds or other land bound enemies.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

I HATE the freezing.

It's dumb and unnecessary. 

[Pruinae]

I think they should give her full fire resistance back and a "Fire meter" like the Woodie's beaverness meter, if the fire meter was full she would have heat resistance (immunity?) or other bonus (speed, sanity, temperature?), if it was too low she would lose her fire resistance (and start to freeze?).

[Arlesienne]

My very rapid thoughts...

- Bernie and the lighter are rich in lore, dating back to Willow's orphanage and asylum life. They stay. Can Bernie trot after her a la Abigail to avoid taking up the slot?

- Fire immunity... Why not how it works on my servers: 300 seconds' grace period, then 1% normal damage. You still overheat normally.

- The lighter is not infinite, but can be refuelled. Possibly a bigger light radius if wielded by her, uncertain.

- Using items which are the opposite of fire, like ice staves, ice cube hats, fashion melons or water balloons, damage sanity more. Wetness damages her faster.

- Fires still raise sanity. I'd have to check if scalemail has a passive sanity boost, but Willow is clearly awed by the dragonfly, so wearing her scales might be right up her alley.

- No random fires since they can destroy the server, punishing more than the player of Willow.

- Can't decide on freezing when insane, it's a double-edged sword.

[Tumalu]

Freezing when insane is a sorta cool drawback but Willow is sort of terrible as it is, so outside of summer it's just... kicking you when you're down. If she can be buffed to be worthwhile to play, I think it'd be okay; otherwise it needs a major tweak.

Maybe she could have a weaker "overdrive" mode like WX's, activated by sufficient amounts of GLORIOUS BLAZE? Like by setting stuff on fire with her Lighter, and/or from standing next to a bunch of fire for awhile? Since it's easier it wouldn't be as good/long as WX's, of course. Maybe signified by small embers burning on the tips of her hair/shoulder/skirt or somethin'.

Or maybe she deal higher damage to things when lighting them on fire (with her lighter). You lose loot if you actually kill things with fire, so, it's not a crazy suggestion. (Alternatively, the fire she uses -doesn't- destroy loot somehow, and is only normal strength?)

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

I get a vibe from some of the suggestions to get Willow have mechanics similar to that of other characters, so like the fire meter similarly to the wood meter that woodie has or "powering up" similarly to WX...

It will make her gameplay way too much the samey I feel if that were done. And in any case, the question this thread brings up is what drawback(s) should Willow have IF her buffs were much more fun and useful.

[minespatch]

Bernie should have a greater importance to Willow, hence my suggestion. I want Willow to have personal effects. It'll give her character development through mechanics.

[Pruinae]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

And in any case, the question this thread brings up is what drawback(s) should Willow have IF her buffs were much more fun and useful.

She should set fire on the base and on herself when doing food with low level cooking skill... No... Wait... Something wrong is not right 

[ShadowDuelist]

Regarding her cons, perhaps tweaking her freezing when insane numbers to a point where its not that crippling (nerfing somewhat the con, essentially) will do the trick, and just turn it into just a nuisance of having an extra thermal stone around. She could also get 20% more damage from freezing or cold related sources, forcing Willow players to be more careful/wiser around deerclops or klaus.

About her buffs I made a post a while back, she could be fire immune again (or as suggested by @Arlesienne make her fire immune time longer than just 2 seconds); be able to put out blazing objects with her bare hands, at the cost of sanity; her lighter should be refuelable with butterflies and provide the same light as a torch (thus providing a useful item to the team other than bernie); and someone suggested a while back that all fire related things should be buffed when she uses them: get shorter crock pot times, get a few more fire staff uses, get a few more scale armor hits when she wears it, enemies she sets on fire with a torch or lighter, stay on fire for a few extra seconds, etc.

[CaptainChaotica]

1 hour ago, MatheusR31 said:

She should set fire on the base and on herself when doing food with low level cooking skill... No... Wait... Something wrong is not right 

Haha.  Low cooking skill?  What is she, a Sim?
 

Spoiler

 

Yep--this is my Sim!  I got her a better skirt later...and recoloured her umbrella to have flame patterns.  Because OF COURSE flame patterns.  And she even has BERNIE!--a teddy-bear she won from a claw-machine on the first try and _yes_, you can name them in-game.  It's a cyborg teddy bear, but hey.  She also sleeps in a tent, warms herself by a firepit, fishes, gardens, and keeps bees.  This is not my best picture of her, but it _is_ the only one I have of her cooking.  Hee.  Sim-Wilson is running around the town as well--and is also my Steam avatar. 

(Sims 3, not 4, in case anybody's like "Wait--you RECOLOURED it?!"  Create-a-Style--coolest thing in the series...used only once.  Unless you count Medieval, which uses the same engine.)

Meh.  I have no idea, really...I just went and got a mod that puts her back to her original self--_including_ the insanity-fires.  I totally get why that was taken out of multiplayer, but as a thing individual admins can choose to have or not have on a server-to-server basis...why not?  But that doesn't answer the question of what to do in the canon game. 

I'M used to her original form--problems and all--so, as an experienced player of this character, _I_ feel I can keep a handle on it.  Which is why I feel okay using that mod (which is the ONLY one I've found, by the way, that gives her back the fire immunity and infinite lighter _while also giving back her original problems_.  All the others are just benefit without drawback and that's CHEATY!)  It _can_ be a bit of a problem when other people join my game as Willow _and don't even know there ever WAS a difference_, but that seldomly happens.  Thanks to all the Willow bashing and insta-kicking _even after the nerf_, she's STILL not that popular of a character.  Sadly.

  I'm not really sure what a non-obnoxious, appropriate and multiplayer-friendly drawback for her would _be_.  The freezing one, I hate.  I freakin' hate.  I tried Together Willow ONCE and...it's what started me using mods at all. The insanity-fires obviously are like THE least multiplayer-friendly thing ever; even _I_ only use that version of her with caution.  She should definitely keep Bernie; it's that teddy-bear she's had in her character-choosing picture since the very beginning.  I hardly ever remember to use him anyway.

Okay.  How 'bout this?  Somewhat faster to freeze _from weather_, not insanity.  But somewhat slower to overheat.  With the (higher) insanity-drain while using ice/water objects.  Also whenever she has to turn on a fling-o-matic she should lose, like, 5 sanity.  Because she HATES those things!  : P  (No, turning it off doesn't get her the 5 sanity back.)  And she still gets sanity from standing next to fires, because that's a fairly small buff anyway.  Fire immunity.  Lighter infinite but wimpy little light and she can't cook on it, or craft one for anyone else.  Bernie, but maybe he's a hair more expensive to craft.  Basically her sanity is still kinda fragile and hanging by a thinner thread than most of the other characters; but when she DOES flip out, she no longer sets things on fire.

Not perfect, but it's a work in progress.  (shrug)

...Notorious

[GiddyGuy]

1 hour ago, minespatch said:

Bernie should have a greater importance to Willow, hence my suggestion. I want Willow to have personal effects. It'll give her character development through mechanics.

I think Bernie is fine as he is, there is another character that replies heavily on a entity to do their bidding and her name is Wendy...and...I guess Maxwell too?

I wish Klei would rework some characters eg. Werebeaver, Maxwell, Wilson. But I just don't see it happening unless someone finds a way to make them op as Wx-78, or having the potential to easily grief bases that doesn't include a easy to make torch. (seriously tho, 2 grass and 2 twigs, you just had to remove insanity fires, and add Bernie sandals .)

[KoreanWaffles]

What if Willow had to manage her sanity with fire?

     Since she is a pyromaniac, what if she started to lose sanity for not being around fire? (I mean, isn't that the reason she spontaneously lights fires under her feet in single player; it's a comfort to maintain her sanity?) The longer she is away from fire, the more sanity she will drain. This will give players an incentive to use her sanity from fire perk, and it fits well into her character. I would also like to propose that Bernie receive the ability to actually fight back against shadow creatures. This would make it easier to help manage Willow's sanity with the previous suggestion and help her fit into the insane pyromaniac design.

Spoiler

Bernie looks so ready to karate-chop some shadows!

     I would, of course, remove her freezing drawback and give back her fire immunity, because that's just Willow things. I get the idea of freezing while insane, but it just doesn't translate well into the game. Being insane as Willow is far more detrimental than every other character because of this drawback. This means that she wants to avoid being insane which means she can't utilize Bernie at all. This literally means that Willow should be played such that she can not utilize all her perks.

     I know some of you will argue that you can use Willow's freezing to your advantage in summer, but (prepare for cliche summer rant) honestly, who actually wants to go around exploring in summer? Exploring means that you may start wildfires at random, so you'll probably be stuck at base by an endothermic fire, or exploring the caves which you can not overheat in, meaning that Willow's insanity will freeze her down there. It's a cool idea see what I did there xd but it just doesn't translate well into the game.

     I don't think these changes will make Willow overpowered at all, (and definitely nowhere near as overpowered as some other characters) but it will make her a more engaging and fun character to play, and isn't that what really matters in DST? I'd just like to show Willow players some love, especially with the bad reputation Willow has received as being a "griefer" character.

[CaptainChaotica]

Heheh.  I once actually met a guy who freaked OUT at the blue endothermic fire the first time I lit one, and thought it was a _mod_.  He had only ever based in the caves during summer THAT.  MUCH.

...wow.  You've NEVER summered on the surface even once, _before_ changing to the caves?  Not quite as bad as the person who kept telling Abigail to go revive herself at the portal*, but...

Me, I'll be over here refueling my flings.  I'm crazy old Stays-In-The-Sun!  We're a small and probably dying breed, but we're proud...of being idiots who deal with heat so they can see all day.  : P

ANYway.  I realise this is off-topic, except that it has to do with fire.  Heh.

...Notorious

*And on top of that, it's not even an Endless server!

[JohnWatson]

Even if Willow had no downsides, she would still be a terrible character.

[Donke60]

Well taking current drawbacks without trying to add new ones I purpose she get fire immuity in the case that when she lights things in her inventory she takes no damage and deals more the damage as long as the item burns in her inventory

The bonus damage would not stack and would be considered on what you burned as well as give you sanity for it being a fire.

[TheKingDedede]

@ImDaMisterL, should this be moved?

[SkyCommision]

Getting cold?
Just being cold isn't enough.

Let's combine this with some other stuff and make it so that she literally freezes. As in, immobilized.

I barely ever play WIllow in DST, and I always though that her "Freezes when insane" perk literally meant that she froze in a block of ice. Why not, then?

[Quoth143]

4 minutes ago, SkyCommision said:

Getting cold?
Just being cold isn't enough.

Let's combine this with some other stuff and make it so that she literally freezes. As in, immobilized.

I barely ever play WIllow in DST, and I always though that her "Freezes when insane" perk literally meant that she froze in a block of ice. Why not, then?

I like that better. 

[CaptainChaotica]

Wow, that's even WORSE.  How are you supposed to do _anything_ to get UNinsane when you can't even move?

(I seriously goddamn hate that freezing thing.  Stupid shadow monsters not letting me put down a fire, grumble grumble...)

...Notorious

[SkyCommision]

6 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

Wow, that's even WORSE.  How are you supposed to do _anything_ to get UNinsane when you can't even move?

(I seriously goddamn hate that freezing thing.  Stupid shadow monsters not letting me put down a fire, grumble grumble...)

...Notorious

Interesting... maybe this is when the "Together" part comes in. Willow's friends have to melt her by using a torch, Fire Staff, or any other kind of warm tool on her. Then again, that would just be holding her hand so who knows?