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5 hours ago, WillowCrocker said:

Good read. Still want "The Firestarter" back to actually, you know, starting fires. Klei appeased the children demographic of their player base, just in time for them to stop caring about the base characters and ban Willows on sight. They spent all the time and energy to fix something that wasn't even broken to spare new players actually having to figure out ways to get around it... or figuring out how to password protect their servers.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Good read. Still want "The Firestarter" back to actually, you know, starting fires. Klei appeased the children demographic of their player base, just in time for them to stop caring about the base characters and ban Willows on sight. They spent all the time and energy to fix something that wasn't even broken to spare them actually having to figure out ways to get around it... or figuring out how to password protect their servers.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

You should really discontinue your disrespect of fellow players.  Just because they did not enjoy the random fire mechanic does not make them children.  If you continue to disrespect others like this, I'll just have to start reporting your posts.

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50 minutes ago, Ecu said:

You should really discontinue your disrespect of fellow players.  Just because they did not enjoy the random fire mechanic does not make them children.  If you continue to disrespect others like this, I'll just have to start reporting your posts.

@Ecu, go to your safe space, seriously... What is your deal?

Actually, you know what? Nevermind. You're the first person I'll add to my ignore list. Bye.

PS - reported for harassment.

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I know that it's difficult for some people to understand that newer players have difficulties with Willow. She isn't the easiest character to play. Here's the rub: she was never meant to be easy to play. She was an unlock character in the original Don't Starve for a reason. By the time you unlocked Willow, getting through the night was trivial, so getting the lighter was just an early game break on materials (straw and twigs). Her fire immunity allowed her to not worry so much about Red Hounds (at least their fire). Having so many breaks, however, there had to be a mid/late game cost to her. The challenge of a loss of a base due to Sanity loss was that cost.

And a lot of kids (who are children because they ARE children: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/children) don't react well to having their bases burned down. One more time...

Pro-Tip: The SUREST way to make sure your server doesn't get get griefed is secure your server. A griefer can't grief your server if he can't get onto your server. Password your server. Play with only people you trust. It's really that simple. The first rule of griefers is "If you don't secure your server, you deserve to be griefed." In the name of all that is holy and your own sanity, secure your servers.

It appears that Willow is an extremely unpopular character now, mostly because she's worthless, and because she has a terrible reputation now, thanks to people who both couldn't play her effectively and those who don't have the maturity to deal with losing their base on their unsecured servers to players that either didn't know how to play or intentionally destroyed their base or server while playing Willow.

Being annoying or hard to play is not a reason to change Willow, who Klei seemed to think worked fine in Don't Starve, but suddenly, because people wanted to play together, they suddenly needed to change Willow to accommodate the players who were unwilling (not unable) to learn how to deal with Willow and/or secure their servers against griefers.

Willow was supposed to be a difficult character to play beyond the early game. All I'm saying is, let her be that difficult character. Players need to learn different strategies, especially to deal with fire. Let "The Firestarter" be the pyromaniac she's supposed to be. #MakeWillowGreatAgain

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3 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Being annoying or hard to play is not a reason to change Willow, who Klei seemed to think worked fine in Don't Starve, but suddenly, because people wanted to play together, they suddenly needed to change Willow to accommodate the players who were unwilling (not unable) to learn how to deal with Willow and/or secure their servers against griefers.

Willow was supposed to be a difficult character to play beyond the early game. All I'm saying is, let her be that difficult character. Players need to learn different strategies, especially to deal with fire

Ok then you should have no problems playing here the way she is now because she has gotten harder or "worthless" in your opinion. Anyway before this thread gets locked or abandoned thank you @Mantas and @WillowCrocker for standing up for your characters besides the less played a character is the more cheap the skins get. Anyway all joking aside I loved that the "worst character in the game was thought of and discussed and still have some players that like her and to me that was great reminds me all the time when I picked the lowest tier character in a fighting game because I liked him and his personality (and he fought people using baseball) so I just kept playing and thats all you need. What a glorious year it has been. Now the only thing that should rest on our minds is where do I eat my popcorn now.
 

Reporting over the city

Over the smokestacks

THE WEATHERMAN 

 

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8 hours ago, Donke60 said:

Ok then you should have no problems playing here the way she is now because she has gotten harder or "worthless" in your opinion. Anyway before this thread gets locked or abandoned thank you @Mantas and @WillowCrocker for standing up for your characters besides the less played a character is the more cheap the skins get. Anyway all joking aside I loved that the "worst character in the game was thought of and discussed and still have some players that like her and to me that was great reminds me all the time when I picked the lowest tier character in a fighting game because I liked him and his personality (and he fought people using baseball) so I just kept playing and thats all you need. What a glorious year it has been. Now the only thing that should rest on our minds is where do I eat my popcorn now.
 

Reporting over the city

Over the smokestacks

THE WEATHERMAN 

 

Uh, okay, there's no threat to it getting abandoned. I don't know if you've noticed, but this thread is in the "suggestions and feedback" section. I'm fairly certain that it qualifies as both a "suggestion" and as "feedback". Just because a few of the usual suspects think that they somehow own the forums (there ALWAYS are some), and they use their group think to shut down dissent, doesn't mean I have any obligation to not suggest or give feedback.

Either or, all I'm doing is bringing attention to a problem that many people would like to see fixed. I think the vast majority of players don't care one way or another, mainly because they won't play Willow. Then you have the people who will play Willow no matter what, and will defend Klei no matter what they do (there ALWAYS are those, too).

Me? I am going to argue for restoring Willow to her original state, because I think that the "The Firestarter" should start fires. It's kind of what "firestarter" means. If Klei wanted to do anything to fix the characters, they should have started with making them locked until new players knew something about how to play. As it is right now, we have a very small and very motivated group of players arguing that it's somehow "wrong" to criticize Klei and/or are inexplicably arguing that people shouldn't have to password protect their servers against griefers... because... reasons.

Willow is one of if not THE least popular character at present. There are only a few reasons that this is possibly true. People don't know she exists. Well, she's the second character visible other than "random". So other than the blind subset of players, that eliminates that reason. There are a few esoteric reasons for people not wanting to play her, like she's not appealing aesthetically, but she used to be more popular than she is now, and her look hasn't changed. That leaves only one option. She's not fun or compelling to play. That's the reason.

Now, there's going to be more than one camp on this, because this IS a subjective argument. A lot of things can factor into "what is fun" and "what isn't fun". But let me submit this. A vast majority of these people arguing AGAINST changing Willow back to her original Don't Starve state will STILL happily play her if Klei did restore her to her original state. There are a great deal of people that would play Willow again if she were restored to her original Don't Starve incarnation.

There is, however, nothing that can be done about the significant damage to her reputation that's been done by griefers, and, sorry, nothing that was changed about her has made her less griefer friendly. The reason griefers use different characters now is because Willow is often kicked or banned on sight. With other characters, griefers can get close to their targets. This is a problem that is actually the fault of the server hosts and, to a lesser extent, Klei. If you want less griefing, either implement grief protection or server protection. This game doesn't work well for public servers, because grief protection is a bit tricky to implement without destroying the game.

All I'm arguing is that the current implementation of "The Firestarter" is remarkably free of "fire starting". Changing her because younger players whined that she was "burning down their bases" as if that isn't how her disadvantage was supposed to work says a lot about Klei and their player base. The whole point of the Don't Starve is challenging the players, by pushing them to the edge of survival within the rules of the game and forcing players to find creative ways to overcome those thematic weaknesses. Willow was one of the characters that epitomized this challenge. Apparently challenging people personally to deal with this was a challenge too far for Klei.

Unfortunately, where we're at is Klei's changed popular characters in unthematic ways for meta reasons, making Willow (among others) a character that doesn't make any sense. The game used to be about dropping people with various psychological pathologies into an insane wilderness world...

Wilson: The only rational character in an insane world.

Wickerbottom: An insomniac in an insane world.

Wolfgang: A coward in an insane world.

Wendy: A depressive in an insane world.

Willow: A pyromaniac in an insane world. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania)

That sort of fits for all the characters except for Willow now. So, yeah, I'm still going to say...

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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I understand that there are different playstyles. People need to understand that the reason I want to play DST is because I want to play DS characters with friends. I don't want to play characters that are only superficially similar to DS characters with friends, especially when the reasons that I'm being forced to play characters that are suffering from hamfisted "fixes" is because enough people whined about the character without bothering to secure their servers or learning how to play with or as Willow.

It's that simple.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

I know that it's difficult for some people to understand that newer players have difficulties with Willow. She isn't the easiest character to play. Here's the rub: she was never meant to be easy to play. She was an unlock character in the original Don't Starve for a reason. By the time you unlocked Willow, getting through the night was trivial, so getting the lighter was just an early game break on materials (straw and twigs). Her fire immunity allowed her to not worry so much about Red Hounds (at least their fire). Having so many breaks, however, there had to be a mid/late game cost to her. The challenge of a loss of a base due to Sanity loss was that cost.

Actually, Willow being an unlockable character is not evidence for her difficulty, as nearly every character is must be unlocked in original Don't Starve.  There is no direct correlation here.

10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

And a lot of kids (who are children because they ARE children: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/children) don't react well to having their bases burned down. One more time...

This is another example of you disrespecting players by calling them children.  At this point, we know what you want and many of us here disagree, including some that have played Willow extensively.  So to avoid further disrespect to fellow players, I summon @ImDaMisterL to take a look at closing this thread, since it is no longer constructive.

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Strangely enough, people argue that Willow (and other characters) should be changed, and if I don't like it, I should install mods to restore her. Meanwhile, there are mods that prevent people from burning your base down, nerf fire, or add protection. If you don't like fire, don't nerf Willow, nerf fire.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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@ImDaMisterL

I'm not certain what Ecu's problem is, other than he seems to want to make this thread into something other than what it is. After reading other threads that he's involved in, and he seems to love to threaten people and report them for "infractions". Either or, the thread is about restoring Willow to her original Don't Starve implementation. It's intended to be a suggestion and feedback.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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6 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

the thread is about restoring Willow to her original Don't Starve implementation. It's intended to be a suggestion and feedback.

Exactly, and since this is a public forum people that disagree with said suggestions will state their opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. It only starts being a problem once people start insulting each other or others in the middle of their discussion.

From what I've read of this thread, no one seems to be doing that. Ecu pointed out it was rude for you to call players children, but I understand you mean the actual under-age part of the community, and not that the community acted like children.

I'm not going to be locking this for now, at least, because I really am against locking threads if they aren't explicitly toxic. Though if you guys want my opinion, this argument doesn't seem to be going anywhere from the 3 pages of it... as long as everyone respects each other, there is no need for something serious like a lock, but the moment I notice this respect starting to fade from here, I have the lock in hand and the key is ready to be thrown in a sea of reject plushies and Klei Valentine letters.

EDIT 2: Just don't be a jerk guys, thnak u.

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Thank you, @ImDaMisterL. I appreciate your open mindedness here, and thank you for understanding that, yes, I'm being "literal" when I refer to the considerable "under age" demographic of DS/DST. I'm trying to be respectful of people's counter arguments. Some of them are better than others. I just don't believe "well most people think" (without citation) is confirming anything. Considering that Willow appears to be among the least played characters, even though she's prominently displayed on the character selection screen right next to Wilson is troubling, especially with how popular female characters tend to be.

There is something wrong with Willow, and a lot of it is her bad reputation, because of griefers. It seems every mod dealing with the problem of fire specifically calls out Willow. Unfortunately, there's nothing that I or you or anyone can do to fix her reputation. At this point, it is what it is. Regardless, I'd like the option of playing her as she was originally implemented (infinite lighter, no Bernie, fire immunity, and pyromania), and I am clearly not alone.

The "Willow the unNerfed" mod has had 33,498 people view it on Steam. 12,340 people have Subscribed to it, even though it's a bugged and abandoned project. The "Twigs and Matches: A restoration Mod" mod is incomplete, but already has almost 10K views, and over 1K subscriptions. All told, that's 14K players that are so desperate to play the original Willow from Don't Starve that they are using abandoned and incomplete mods to do so.

Considering the large number of people who don't understand how mods work, this is not a trivial number of players. The entire reason I bought DST for my friend is so that we could play DS together. Had I realized that Willow (and others) had been changed so drastically from Don't Starve, it seriously would have changed my decision to buy. At least provide an option for characters to be "Classic" in server settings? I know that there are other options that allow for "classic" options. Would this be feasible?

Thanks.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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15 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Considering the large number of people who don't understand how mods work, this is not a trivial number of players. The entire reason I bought DST for my friend is so that we could play DS together. Had I realized that Willow (and others) had been changed so drastically from Don't Starve, it seriously would have changed my decision to buy. At least provide an option for characters to be "Classic" in server settings? I know that there are other options that allow for "classic" options. Would this be feasible?

Allowing for "classic" character balance to be played, as you suggest is, honestly, not very reasonable.  It would essentially double the possibility for character issues when adding new content to the game.  More options isn't always better for game design as each option that you add, adds significant maintenance to the game.

This is one of the primary reasons I suggested modding to you as a solution.  It allows the community to shoulder this additional development work to maintain the balance of the old character style, while allowing Klei to focus on new content.

Going back to her DS state just isn't good for the base game as people really don't want to worry about someone randomly burning their base down accidentally, just cause they lost some sanity.  Sure a set of experienced characters might not have this issue very often, however, the same experienced characters would understand how to get mods and likely won't be playing on the official servers anyways.

 

P.S. - Your insinuation that only children have a problem with the old fire starting trait is obviously incorrect, as I've had multiple people that I'm pretty sure are not young players like my posts here and I, myself, have spoken against it (and I'm over 30).  So please watch the way you phrase your statements as they can really come off quite disrespectful to others.

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Thanks for the bump, Ecu. I'm glad to see you continue to support #MakeWillowGreatAgain.

There should be an option to play the characters with their "Classic" implementations. Who cares whether it causes balance issues. That's kind of baked into the "Classic" setting. If you start playing on a "Classic" character server, you should know that it means you're going to be playing with the "Classic" characters at their "Classic" strengths and "Classic" weaknesses. Balance the new content to the new characters all they like. Don't even worry about balancing content against the "Classic" construction. Put a disclaimer in the setting that "the game isn't balanced against them well". All better.

Here's the thing, though. The people that want the characters to play like they did in Don't Starve understand it would affect the play style and balance, but here's the thing, we don't care. We WANT to play the Classic characters. Get this? The customers want it. How crazy, right? Giving your customers what they want? Mind blowing concept, I'm sure.

Here's the beauty of it for Klei. It costs them almost NOTHING in development. They already have the code for all of the Classic characters, so no serious development costs there. All they need to do is implement a functional option for DST server options that enable the Classic characters. They can do this with the disclaimer that they will continue to focus on balancing content for the DST versions of the characters, and the amount of happiness is increased overall. Win, win, win for everyone. Win for Klei. Win for people that like DST characters. And a Win for people that wanted to Don't Starve... Together.

This isn't a bad thing.

#YourWorldYourRules, remember? #MakeDontStarveGreatAgain

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18 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

The people that want the characters to play like they did in Don't Starve understand it would affect the play style and balance, but here's the thing, we don't care. We WANT to play the Classic characters.

Aren't we all people?...

Well, @WeirdoBob knows I'm sunflowers and @MeingroessterFan claims the shape of my ears should warrant strangling me with iron... Oopsie.

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1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Thanks for the bump, Ecu. I'm glad to see you continue to support #MakeWillowGreatAgain.

There should be an option to play the characters with their "Classic" implementations. Who cares whether it causes balance issues. That's kind of baked into the "Classic" setting. If you start playing on a "Classic" character server, you should know that it means you're going to be playing with the "Classic" characters at their "Classic" strengths and "Classic" weaknesses. Balance the new content to the new characters all they like. Don't even worry about balancing content against the "Classic" construction. Put a disclaimer in the setting that "the game isn't balanced against them well". All better.

Here's the thing, though. The people that want the characters to play like they did in Don't Starve understand it would affect the play style and balance, but here's the thing, we don't care. We WANT to play the Classic characters. Get this? The customers want it. How crazy, right? Giving your customers what they want? Mind blowing concept, I'm sure.

Here's the beauty of it for Klei. It costs them almost NOTHING in development. They already have the code for all of the Classic characters, so no serious development costs there. All they need to do is implement a functional option for DST server options that enable the Classic characters. They can do this with the disclaimer that they will continue to focus on balancing content for the DST versions of the characters, and the amount of happiness is increased overall. Win, win, win for everyone. Win for Klei. Win for people that like DST characters. And a Win for people that wanted to Don't Starve... Together.

This isn't a bad thing.

#YourWorldYourRules, remember? #MakeDontStarveGreatAgain

I'm sorry, but the customer is not always right, especially in game design.

Just because you might want a feature, does not mean a majority of players want said feature either.  Who's to say that a majority don't actually prefer not having Willow start fires when insane?  Without actual factual evidence to back such a claim, the most you can say is that you and others supporting you in this thread (one or two people?) want Willow returned to her old state.  There are already more people opposing your suggestion in this thread alone.

When a developer implements content and/or balance changes to their game, it is generally considered good practice to keep things working well together.  As such, officially allowing a classic character mode would be a poor feature to implement (given the reasons I mentioned in my prior post).  Ignoring the balance and just doing it anyways is not something that development teams generally do with official updates.

As such, if you want to ignore balance and just play it the way you want, use a mod.

If you want to improve Willow, so that she is more appealing to play, then suggest changes to the character that remain in-line with the current design of the game (a.k.a. no random fire starting), so that said suggestions will be more likely to be implemented in an official capacity.

Improving her resistance to fire and reducing the speed in which she freezes would both really contribute to making her more appealing, while still fitting well with the current design.  These would be solid changes to the official character.

 

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1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Aik, forgot you aren't a regular yet. Sorry. It's a hermetic joke, simply said.

Allow me to kindly remark on the fact that the sentence quoted is very much a generalisation, so you may wish to clarify your point. Any instance of stating us vs them makes my hackles rise, forgive the old sop.

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3 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Aik, forgot you aren't a regular yet. Sorry. It's a hermetic joke, simply said.

Allow me to kindly remark on the fact that the sentence quoted is very much a generalisation, so you may wish to clarify your point. Any instance of stating us vs them makes my hackles rise, forgive the old sop.

Uh... I'm not the one pushing the "our way or the highway" here, bud. I'm offering a compromise that makes you happy, me happy. I seriously don't know why you are arguing against this compromise? A "Classic characters" option in server options lets people that want to play the classic Don't Starve characters play that, but lets you that seem to want to play the new DST characters keep on doing just that. We can get out of each other's hair. We CAN have our cake and eat it too, so to speak.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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"The Willowfire problem is temporal and regulates itself" is a pretty strong argument. "We've accepted the change so you should too" is a valid response, but it's not very constructive.

On the infinite lighter, I think it's important for it to have durability, otherwise you only need to craft it once for each player. If it's made Willow-specific, how can she get it back if she drops and loses it permanently? Perhaps it could be made more accessible (useful) by modifying the recipe, like removing the Rope requirement in place of Flint or Rocks.

On fire immunity, you'd have to know why it is too strong, but they result in questions for the devs:

  • what is currently available that can be abused (very unfair advantage) with immunity?
  • are they planning to rework fire damage so 50% resistance is more perceptible?
  • are they planning on adding more boss-like mobs based on fire?
  • are they planning on adding a rewarding area that can only be accessed with Scalemail or Willow?
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5 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Uh... I'm not the one pushing the "our way or the highway" here, bud. I'm offering a compromise that makes you happy, me happy. I seriously don't know why you are arguing against this compromise? A "Classic characters" option in server options lets people that want to play the classic Don't Starve characters play that, but lets you that seem to want to play the new DST characters keep on doing just that. We can get out of each other's hair. We CAN have our cake and eat it too, so to speak.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

No, my good sir/madam (I am yet uncertain in regard to your gender), you are gravely mistaken. I am not arguing at all, because I can work with either version of Willow. I know quite a handful of players, newbies and veterans alike, and literally one wants to have the singleplayer Willow in. The lady is quite charming. That said, I doubt there will be any changes to the characters; they are pretty established and Klei offers us brand new content. I would suggest to state who wants which Willow rather than use open terms like "people" or "we". That doesn't apply just to you, but to everyone. Please refrain from stating I am part of this little argument. Thank you!

And I shall not call for the right of affaire d'honneur (do be open-minded about the term, honour is much more than just restraint from cavorting) over being called a bud rather than true great sunflowers (@Weirdobob, back me up!) only due to being ill :twisted:.

Sunflower-with-sunglasses.jpg

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"I know quite a handful of players, newbies and veterans alike, and literally one wants to have the singleplayer Willow in."

Appeal to the anecdotal.

"Please refrain from stating I am part of this little argument."

Err, you're in the argument, bud. :) Otherwise you're supplying fallacious arguments simply for the fun of it. Possible, but pointless. Once again, all those people who don't want Willow to change can continue playing "Default" DST. A Classic option allows people like me, that want to play the original implementation of Don't Starve characters to play how we like.

As you just stated, though, that you, like many players "would play Willow regardless of how she's implemented". Good! Because you'll be happy whatever Klei does. I would like them to restore Willow (and the other characters) to the original billing. Failing that, I would like Klei to make the "Classic" characters be a server option. Doesn't affect you at all. Glad I could count on your support.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

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12 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

"I know quite a handful of players, newbies and veterans alike, and literally one wants to have the singleplayer Willow in."

Appeal to the anecdotal.

"Please refrain from stating I am part of this little argument."

Err, you're in the argument, bud. :) Otherwise you're supplying fallacious arguments simply for the fun of it. Possible, but pointless. Once again, all those people who don't want Willow to change can continue playing "Default" DST. A Classic option allows people like me, that want to play the original implementation of Don't Starve characters to play how we like.

As you just stated, though, that you, like many players "would play Willow regardless of how she's implemented". Good! Because you'll be happy whatever Klei does. I would like them to restore Willow (and the other characters) to the original billing. Failing that, I would like Klei to make the "Classic" characters be a server option. Doesn't affect you at all. Glad I could count on your support.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

In order to see your statement I supplied a fallacy is incorrect, feel free to check my group (linked on my profile) and ask their members. The same can be done here on the Klei forums. I feel very humbled by the fact many of the oldtimers find me interesting enough to interact and play with.

I have no intention of being associated with this thread. I left my three pence and this is it. It strikes me as pointless, seeing it has evolved into you and @Ecu talking, something you could do in PMs, about a change which 99% won't be implemented as Klei made the decision about characters way ago and has long since moved on. Interested parties can edit the characters. Willow lends herself to modding easily enough to need no arbitrary retuning. Topmost, I am disenchanted with the condescending tone in which you think children are incapable of handling the DS Willow and thus "whine". It is a fallacious statement as you, as far as I know at least, have no access to DS/DST demographics, beyond that it portrays youngsters in bad light without reason. Additionally I don't feel right being called a bud given my age, experience and orientation. As I see this thread is going nowhere and I'm not following it, I hope you won't mind the fact I will not see any updates. Please do not consider myself in support of your case here, thank you.

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Okay, dude. Whatever. You don't seem to grasp the concept of a "Suggestion and Feedback" thread. It isn't a popularity contest. It's suggestion and feedback. :)

Either or, thanks for the bump. This is an important topic, and needs to be kept front and center for people to consider. There's plenty of people liking it, considering the level of activity in the forum. And I'll continue to argue the case for those people that agree. Ciao.

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