Willow

[FistfulOfZen]

3 hours ago, Ecu said:

No.  That is not how you design a game.  You generally decide on an experience you wish to create and balance around said experience.  The experience they wished to create did not work with Willow the way she was, so they changed her.  Just that the changes pushed too far in the opposite direction.  The solution is not to just go back to what it was.

No. You design a game so that it is fun. Willow isn't fun. Over all DST is, like so many "sequels", which is what they've turned DST into, a disappointment to many people.

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To be completely honest, perhaps the game isn't for you and original Don't Starve is better?  I only say this because it seems you don't care much for the direction they went for Don't Starve Together.  Not that you cannot suggest changes to the game, just that if your suggestions want to remove a majority of what they've changed...perhaps the game isn't for you.

No, you don't understand, brother. When Klei announced DST, the player base was ECSTATIC. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends. Baller! Then they announced DST was going to be a "separate game". The player base was NOT PLEASED. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends, AND Klei had already initially announced it as an expansion DLC for DS. It was a FEATURE that we wanted for Don't Starve, and we didn't think we should have to buy a whole other game, just to have access to a multiplayer Don't Starve.

But here's the rub. Slowly but surely, this knock off DST developer (because, let's face it, if they hadn't gotten the license, this would have been just some knock off. It still doesn't even have an adventure mode!) has quietly betrayed the player base by turning DST back into a separate game. I agree that SOME changes are necessary. Others are not. The changes to Willow were not strictly "necessary". She played fine in multiplayer, even if "inconvenient". Some changes to Woodie could be strictly "necessary", such as what happens to him after he loses his were form, though I would just progress to the next day, as per his weakness.

Again, I reiterate, in the early versions of DST, Willow was exactly the same as she was in DS. Every character was basically a direct port of their Don't Starve versions. Why? The community wanted DST to be DS-MP. It's that simple. We didn't want a new game and had been promised, by Klei, that DST was going to be an add on DLC. The new developer clearly didn't want to do that. Why is there even a PVP mode to begin with?

No, once again, making a game fun is the whole point of making great games. DST is falling short of that. I'm not saying that it's a bad game. I'm saying that it's definitely not as good as what should be the base game. PVP sleaze has ruined many of the best elements of the characters in the game. As frustrating as Willow was in DS to play, I liked her quite well the way she was.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[FistfulOfZen]

Also, a note, DST didn't even introduce any new characters, that's how rip offy it is. Remember, they initially marketed this as a DLC. I understand the problems with development costs and the need for NECESSARY changes, but a change isn't "necessary", just because a bunch of 12 year olds whine about it, especially in a mode that makes little to no sense in the game (PVP) and that has only 103 active public servers in total across all of the playstyles.

And as far as Willow burning down their base because she's crazy? All I hear is "whaaaaaaaaaaa!". I know, it's a bit tough a reaction, but let's face it, crying about a character doing what she is literally FAMOUS for doing is hardly an adult reaction. Don't play with her if you don't know how to handle her, or the entire TEAM needs to make her Sanity a priority in their strategy, move the flower field and taffy production up a bit in the scheme of things.

Either or, @Ecu. I think that the crux of the argument is whether or not the changes to the characters, in particular Willow in this case, were "necessary". In my opinion, if there's nothing game breaking occurring, then the "necessary" argument fails. I don't see anything "game breaking" going on with Willow. Yes, you screw up, you die. That's always kind of been the point of Don't Starve. The reason people end up dying or starving usually has more than a little to do with their weaknesses.

• Wendy will usually die if finds herself in a fight without Abigail.
• Wolfgang will usually die if he finds himself without access to early and consistent Sanity curing items.
• Wickerbottom will starve if a Red Hound dies and burns up all of her fresh food in the middle of winter.
• Woodie will die if he unBeavers in Winter and he's not near his base camp or his gear or if there are mobs he aggrod during Beav-out.
• Willow will usually die because she burns her base down.

This has always been the way the characters have played. That is why they are (supposedly) "fatal flaws", emphasis on the "fatal", something that the new developers don't get and clearly don't buy into.

Remember, Willow is a young woman that is FRUIT BAT crazy. The very first thing that you learn about Willow is "Tee Hee!", "Oops!", "I made a fire!"... and then the entire forest is burning around her. This is what made Willow one of the most challenging, funny, and frustrating characters to play with, but it was also honest to the character, and, most importantly of all, fun. Even after you burn out a few times (pun intended) with Willow, the best players will take her flaw killing them as the challenge to their skill that it is.

The rest whined until she got "nerfed". 

Willow remains one of the most challenging of the DS characters to play, and DST robbed us of that amazing challenge because whiners.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[Donke60]

oo I want a shot lets get to work timbers

3 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

No. You design a game so that it is fun. Willow isn't fun. Over all DST is, like so many "sequels", which is what they've turned DST into, a disappointment to many people.

Ok you said over all the game is fun just that willow isn't fun to play this means nothing since most games if not all games are perfect in anyway and I'm not saying willow is a perfect character either.

 

4 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

No, you don't understand, brother. When Klei announced DST, the player base was ECSTATIC. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends. Baller! Then they announced DST was going to be a "separate game". The player base was NOT PLEASED. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends, AND Klei had already initially announced it as an expansion DLC for DS. It was a FEATURE that we wanted for Don't Starve, and we didn't think we should have to buy a whole other game, just to have access to a multiplayer Don't Starve.

I don't think anyone was but that has come and gone and most have the games so there isn't a point to this arguement. In defense to Kiel decision they could of done it this way so that when they changed a character it didn't mess them up for single player DST can get away with having characters be subpar when they are alone because the game isn't suppose to be played alone.

 

4 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

But here's the rub. Slowly but surely, this knock off DST developer (because, let's face it, if they hadn't gotten the license, this would have been just some knock off. It still doesn't even have an adventure mode!) has quietly betrayed the player base by turning DST back into a separate game. I agree that SOME changes are necessary. Others are not. The changes to Willow were not strictly "necessary". She played fine in multiplayer, even if "inconvenient". Some changes to Woodie could be strictly "necessary", such as what happens to him after he loses his were form, though I would just progress to the next day, as per his weakness.

The only thing that I've seen of woodie players wanting back is mainly his were beaver tankiness thats about it. and your knockoff DS arugement makes little since I saw a mod of DST adventure mode I don't know if its still active with the recent updates but whatever I don't think it would be comfortable and possible to run adventure mode for that would be a lot of shards for servers or moving every player on the world all at once to a new world thats insane and adventure mode wan'st the main draw of DS to begin with. @Ecu agrees with you on bring her immuity back but not the sponstaous fire because in :DST she could make a lot of ripples and turn a run into a really bad time and I agree with @Ecu on that part because her fire startings were totally unpredictable and we already have enough stigma toward other characters I think here freezing durring low sanity is a much better option because its

 

3 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Willow will usually die because she burns her base down.

and everybody who shared that base with her and thats the point of why I'm against your bring here sponstanous fire back it was to much of a group liabity

 

4 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Again, I reiterate, in the early versions of DST, Willow was exactly the same as she was in DS. Every character was basically a direct port of their Don't Starve versions

It wasn't balanced back then either but for different reasons like Woodie would rarely come out of his werebeaver form and still couldn't do full moon activites

 

3 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Remember, Willow is a young woman that is FRUIT BAT crazy. The very first thing that you learn about Willow is "Tee Hee!", "Oops!", "I made a fire!"... and then the entire forest is burning around you. This is what made Willow one of the most challenging, funny, and frustrating characters to play with, but it was also honest to the character, and, most importantly of all, fun. Even after you burn out with Willow a few times, the best players will take her flaw killing them as the challenge to their skill that it is.

Your opinion doesn't mean it is the best option and her perks have nothing to do on influencing her personality so she is still FRUIT BAT crazy as you say and also this is when you were alone and could only drag yourself down into the mud not everyone else and she can still be fun we jsut have to think of some new things instead of boncing back to just make her a direct copy because that will cause the problems that got Willow to this state in the frist place.

Did I do good Timbers? I think so?
GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY!
i'LL BE WATCHING  

[FistfulOfZen]

Not entirely sure what your argument is @Donke60

Willow's obsession with burning things comes from being a "pyromaniac", notice the word "maniac"? Willow is supposed to be batcrap crazy. That's her "fatal flaw". The entire premise of Don't Starve is that you have to play through the game with a rational character (Wilson), and then you unlock other characters, each with stronger perks than a beard, but also cursed with fatal flaws. That's the whole POINT of the game. You take away those fatal flaws, you destroy the point of the game.

The POINT of the fatal flaws is that they could put your character into a dangerous position, leave you vulnerable. They wouldn't, however, kill you directly. Willow's DST incarnation will kill her. The DST developers missed the whole point.

Speaking of missing the point, you didn't address the main argument.

1) Her fatal flaw isn't game breaking. The SAME solutions and strategies that work in single player to alleviate her fire obsessions also work in DST.

2) Whiners whined, getting a character changed. There is NOTHING wrong with her fatal flaw. The problem is that children don't know or want to learn how to deal with it.

[Donke60]

10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Willow's obsession with burning things comes from being a "pyromaniac", notice the word "maniac"? Willow is supposed to be batcrap crazy. That's her "fatal flaw". The entire premise of Don't Starve is that you have to play through the game with a rational character (Wilson), and then you unlock other characters, each with stronger perks than a beard, but also cursed with fatal flaws. That's the whole POINT of the game. You take away those fatal flaws, you destroy the point of the game.

All her abity did was light fires when she was going under to try and gain comfort that isn't really crazy for me and me and you disagree on what the characters are there for why they can be used for challeges the characters in my opinion were there to support or offer different playstyles that is it and the goal of DS is just to survive if the game was character based then I feel like the story would have wait to it as far as I can tell the characters are interchangable

 

10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

The POINT of the fatal flaws is that they could put your character into a dangerous position, leave you vulnerable. They wouldn't, however, kill you directly. Willow's DST incarnation will kill her. The DST developers missed the whole point.

Well so your saying that having low sanity as Willow  does not leave yourself vulnerable to getting colder which puts you in a bad position because if left unchecked will indirectly cause you to die from hypothermia Wow I'm shocked.

;Your right they need to change that and put everyone in a dangous posistion because someone had low sanity and RNG love  makewillowgreatagin.
Hey who see what I did there?

 

10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

1) Her fatal flaw isn't game breaking. The SAME solutions and strategies that work in single player to alleviate her fire obsessions also work in DST.

Your right it isn't gamebreaking it was just really annoying struck with warning hard to do damage control and hurt all your team if you are in one. I wonder why the changed it?

 

10 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

2) Whiners whined, getting a character changed. There is NOTHING wrong with her fatal flaw. The problem is that children don't know or want to learn how to deal with it.

Most of been very big and very long whine because it got changed its not your ignoring people's evidence or other ideas or whining no?
 

It's probably my imagination now excuse me I'm fear of darkness is putting my eyes an mind in a panic but I happily await your reponse cause I know your have one.
This Jerkiness brought to you by Tileo Corporation
Sincerely

I'll be watching i'm still interested in this discussion  

[Ecu]

7 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

No. You design a game so that it is fun. Willow isn't fun. Over all DST is, like so many "sequels", which is what they've turned DST into, a disappointment to many people.

No, you don't understand, brother. When Klei announced DST, the player base was ECSTATIC. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends. Baller! Then they announced DST was going to be a "separate game". The player base was NOT PLEASED. Why? Because we wanted to play Don't Starve... Together with our friends, AND Klei had already initially announced it as an expansion DLC for DS. It was a FEATURE that we wanted for Don't Starve, and we didn't think we should have to buy a whole other game, just to have access to a multiplayer Don't Starve.

But here's the rub. Slowly but surely, this knock off DST developer (because, let's face it, if they hadn't gotten the license, this would have been just some knock off. It still doesn't even have an adventure mode!) has quietly betrayed the player base by turning DST back into a separate game. I agree that SOME changes are necessary. Others are not. The changes to Willow were not strictly "necessary". She played fine in multiplayer, even if "inconvenient". Some changes to Woodie could be strictly "necessary", such as what happens to him after he loses his were form, though I would just progress to the next day, as per his weakness.

Again, I reiterate, in the early versions of DST, Willow was exactly the same as she was in DS. Every character was basically a direct port of their Don't Starve versions. Why? The community wanted DST to be DS-MP. It's that simple. We didn't want a new game and had been promised, by Klei, that DST was going to be an add on DLC. The new developer clearly didn't want to do that. Why is there even a PVP mode to begin with?

No, once again, making a game fun is the whole point of making great games. DST is falling short of that. I'm not saying that it's a bad game. I'm saying that it's definitely not as good as what should be the base game. PVP sleaze has ruined many of the best elements of the characters in the game. As frustrating as Willow was in DS to play, I liked her quite well the way she was.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

Why are you playing a game that you obviously have so much hate towards, first and foremost?

Further, you do realize that both games are Klei developed and published, right?  Don't Starve Together is a Klei game, not some other developer's game.  It is very obvious that it is even build off the same codebase, as much of the scripting of the content is the same or similar between the two and it becomes rather easy to port a lot of content between them.

The reason that everything was essentially a port of Don't Starve in the beginning isn't because the community wanted it that way, it is because the game was actually Don't Starve, with added multiplayer.  It evolved with rebalances and tweaks to improve the multiplayer experience.  You might not like the changes, however, there are around 700,000 more DST owners when compared to DS, so it has obviously sold better.

As for your comments on game design, while making games entertaining and fun is always a plus, it isn't always the goal.  Sometimes a game revolves around a sad story and the goal of the game is to evoke said emotion.  Games are experiences and the experience they present is dictated by the goals of the authors.  I definitely believe that in this case, Klei did want to make the game fun and as it has a reasonably strong player base for an indie multiplayer game, I'd say they achieved this goal.

The experience they wished to present just doesn't quite match with what you desire.  Personally, I also think it is a bit poorly presented, which is why I've stated my suggestions towards redesign.  However, I don't think the changes between DS and DST largely affect that.  I feel it is more around how the experience is actually officially presented that is it's detriment.  Since with how it pans out, on official servers, only around half the game's content is really ever utilized.

Willow is a bit underpowered, but works as is in the current environment.  I think she would be more in-line with other characters if she had fire immunity, however, I would never recommend her reverting to her original state as said state is poorly designed for the experience presented by public play in DST.

[ezjm]

Willow used to be one of my favorite characters, until I realized she is unnecessarily difficult compared to the others. She can't handle being cold for long is a big disadvantage in winter. With other characters you can stand 'freezing' for a little while to run to base/fire etc without winter gear, but with her it's pretty much impossible to mess around in winter unless you're constantly starting fires.

I've never really needed much for fire resistance, so I don't see that as a very big advantage.

She takes a little more skill (IMO) with no payoff to play well at the first stage of the game in comparison to Wilson, Olaf, Wigfrid are a lot easier and have more long term advantages and only 1 disadvantage (Wigfrid not eating plants)

[FistfulOfZen]

9 hours ago, ezjm said:

Willow used to be one of my favorite characters, until I realized she is unnecessarily difficult compared to the others. She can't handle being cold for long is a big disadvantage in winter. With other characters you can stand 'freezing' for a little while to run to base/fire etc without winter gear, but with her it's pretty much impossible to mess around in winter unless you're constantly starting fires.

I've never really needed much for fire resistance, so I don't see that as a very big advantage.

She takes a little more skill (IMO) with no payoff to play well at the first stage of the game in comparison to Wilson, Olaf, Wigfrid are a lot easier and have more long term advantages and only 1 disadvantage (Wigfrid not eating plants)

Agreed.

The new weakness is pointless.

The fire immunity was necessary so that Willow could get close enough to enough fires to control her Sanity. Like the closer you stand to a Pigman, the more Sanity you regain, the same is true of Willow. The closer she is to a fire, the quicker she regains her Sanity. It's a necessary mechanic since her maximum Sanity is among the lowest in the game (120), second lowest only to Webber (100). Playing as Willow requires you to keep flammables on you, so if your sanity starts to drop too quickly, you can regain it by dropping objects on the ground and burning them. Basically, it made flammable items a necessary "consumable" for Willow to keep on her at all times.

It also made you have to make trade off decisions about her hand held equipment vs her lighter, if she needed Sanity, which was a constant issue with her until you get good at managing Sanity in general. Take away fire immunity, and you take away her basic Sanity recovery early game mechanic, basically a death sentence in Winter.

Don't forget that "Bernie the Bear" eats up a inventory slot, which isn't a small issue, since she only has so many.

[FistfulOfZen]

21 hours ago, Ecu said:

Why are you playing a game that you obviously have so much hate towards, first and foremost?

This is an irrelevant point. Whatever my feelings toward the game may be doesn't change the facts of my argument.

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Further, you do realize that both games are Klei developed and published, right?

I stand corrected. It's still a wreck.

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The reason that everything was essentially a port of Don't Starve in the beginning isn't because the community wanted it that way...

Full stop. Thank you for conceding the point that 1) the characters used to be more or less direct ports and 2) the community wanted it that way. There is a not insignificant portion of the community that still wants it that way. The whole reason we spent the money on Don't Starve Together in the first place is because we believed it was Don't Starve... Together, not "sort of Don't Starve" Together. Again, there is nothing game breaking about Willow's original abilities or disadvantage. If the only thing wrong with her was that she burns down the team's base, then that is working as intended, per Don't Starve.

That's her weakness. If that's too hard for you, then maybe the problem isn't Willow, but you? She may be the hardest character to play competently in the game, even including Wes, because of her disadvantage, but that's by design. She's supposed to be really hard to play. That's why she's fun to play. She is one of the few characters that makes players really have to worry about all three stats all the time, but when insane, she had a risky but manageable disadvantage. Now, she's the only character that has a disadvantage that DIRECTLY leads to death in DST, and she loses two equipment slots to two nerfed objects, and her "advantages" suck.

Before: she had a lighter, that could act as a small light source (decent advantage) and could light things on fire (meh). She was immune to fire (necessary advantage, but otherwise situational). She could burn down her base if her player let her Sanity get to 50% (very challenging).

Now: she has a lighter for 10 minutes, that can act as a light source (decent advantage) and cook items and can light things on fire (meh). She has partial resistance to fire (irrelevant and underpowered). She can't stay warm when insane (ridiculous challenge).

So what Klei did is made a character that was a challenge to play and made her terrible.

If they wanted to reduce the problem of her setting fires, then they could have changed her disadvantage from triggering at 60 Sanity (anxiety) to 30 Sanity (delirium), however this would represent a major buff to the character, however, making her extremely easy to play by making her limitation fairly trivial. That's why I'm still arguing FOR restoring her to her original advantages and disadvantages. Again, in the hands of a COMPETENT player, Willow is very playable and challenging. People just need to accept that she's a VERY hard character to play.

Please deal with that argument. Thank you.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[CaptainChaotica]

All I'll say here is what I've said before:

After trying out the DST version of Willow _once_ and dying really quickly because I was freezing to death and couldn't make a fire because the shadow creatures that were ALSO a result of said insanity wouldn't stop chasing me...

I installed a mod that restores her to her original DS self and never looked back.

Thank you and good night.  Er, morning.

...Notorious

[Ecu]

59 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Thank you for conceding the point that 1) the characters used to be more or less direct ports and 2) the community wanted it that way.

I do conceded that initially the characters were the same, however, it isn't because they intentionally ported the characters over the same.  It was because it WAS the same game.  From what I can tell, they essentially took the Don't Starve engine, added multiplayer, and that became the base for DST.  Over time they tweaked and adjusted content (including characters) for this new experience.

I don't conceded that the majority of the community wanted the characters to specifically stay the same, as we don't have that information.  The best you could say is that you and some others you know wanted it to stay the same.  You have no factual basis to imply any sort of majority one way or another.  The only factual information we do have is that despite the changes for DST, it has still has 700,000 more copies owned when compared to DS.

1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

If they wanted to reduce the problem of her setting fires, then they could have changed her disadvantage from triggering at 60 Sanity (anxiety) to 30 Sanity (delirium), however this would represent a major buff to the character, however, making her extremely easy to play by making her limitation fairly trivial. That's why I'm still arguing FOR restoring her to her original advantages and disadvantages. Again, in the hands of a COMPETENT player, Willow is very playable and challenging. People just need to accept that she's a VERY hard character to play.

The thing is that public play is the officially supported method of play in the game.  Said public play servers are not actively moderated.  As such, the game being presented on those servers needs to play reasonably well regardless of the character chosen and/or the user's skill level.

Willow as she was in DS did not work here.  Starting fires when insane, in a multiplayer environment, ends up being a team challenge rather than a individual character challenge.  This doesn't sit with the design of the rest of the characters and as such it was changed.  Do I agree with the current incarnation of Willow?  No, not really.  She does indeed freeze too easily and by not being immune to fire, she cannot even mitigate the sanity issues by standing in fires.  However, reverting her back to the way she was ignores the reason she was changed and that is a poor solution.  Instead, I feel like reducing the speed at which she freezes and give back her immunity, and she will still have a reasonable challenge, with a reasonable reward.

[FistfulOfZen]

2 hours ago, Ecu said:

The only factual information we do have is that despite the changes for DST, it has still has 700,000 more copies owned when compared to DS.

That's an Appeal to Popularity. It also means absolutely nothing, because all that says is people like sandbox games to be multi-player, which was THE reason people wanted Don't Starve Together in the first place. Even if DST sold as many as MC, it wouldn't make Willow any less broken.

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The thing is that public play is the officially supported method of play in the game. Said public play servers are not actively moderated.  As such, the game being presented on those servers needs to play reasonably well regardless of the character chosen and/or the user's skill level.

I'm sorry, but "The players are inept, so we have to make the game easier to play" isn't a valid argument for changing the characters. I certainly hope that wasn't Klei's reasoning for nerfing the characters.

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Willow as she was in DS did not work here... Starting fires when insane, in a multiplayer environment, ends up being a team challenge rather than a individual character challenge.

Says who? This is a circular argument. Your assertion is also your conclusion. She worked no better or worse in multi-player than she did in single player. She worked fine in DS. She worked fine in DST. Yes, I've already ceded the point that her burning a base down is VERY inconvenient, but you haven't established that it's somehow game breaking. I could argue that having Wes on your team ends up a "team challenge". But something being inconvenient isn't the same thing as being "game breaking". Also, there are OTHER alternatives.

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This doesn't sit with the design of the rest of the characters and as such it was changed.

Objection, speculation. The real reason she was changed was whining whiners whined until they got their way, and Willow is now one of the least popular characters in the game. Griefers still grief, but now Willow also sucks to play in addition to the continuing griefing.

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Do I agree with the current incarnation of Willow?  No, not really.  She does indeed freeze too easily and by not being immune to fire, she cannot even mitigate the sanity issues by standing in fires.

Yes, we agree on this.

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However, reverting her back to the way she was ignores the reason she was changed and that is a poor solution.  Instead, I feel like reducing the speed at which she freezes and give back her immunity, and she will still have a reasonable challenge, with a reasonable reward.

We agree she's broken. We disagree on the solution. Once again, I restate that the correct course of action is:

• Give her immunity to fire again. (We agree here)
• Maker her lighter infinite again and unusable by anyone else. (Not been contended)
• Lose the stupid bear. We already have Wendy and don't need another (#MakeWendyGreatAgain). (Not been contended)
• Make her set fires at random again at 60 Sanity. Her lack of Sanity (120 max) is supposed to be a challenge, not a death sentence. (The point of contention)

Yes, original Willow as she was in Don't Starve and originally in Don't Starve Together is problematic. She's SUPPOSED to be. A team that can survive and thrive with Willow (as she was in Don't Starve) is better than a team that can't, and people shouldn't pretend that they are "good" at a game, when they can't even survive as or with Willow. Working together to keep each other sane, fed, and healthy is supposed to be the whole point of DST. Don't want Willow burning down your base? Then the noobs need to try these things:

• Build a flower farm (easy to do), and you need it for Bee Boxes anyhow, which provides honey for Taffy.
• Don't put Willow on Grass/Twig/Berry farm duty. Ever.
• Make fire breaks.
• Make common areas and emergency areas fire safe.
• Build Ice Fling-O-Matics. Problem solved.

Many of these things are things players with half a brain should be doing anyway because of Red Hounds. This is not like it's a major change of play style. The problem is that Willow is not "stupid player" friendly. New players playing Willow because she looks cool is really the problem. Sadly, Klei let these noobs dictate how the characters play.

Let's face it. The REAL problem with Willow setting fires is that there are no early game options available to deal with it. Additionally, when she does burn something down, so many things are nonrenewable resources. Inexplicably, many of these nonrenewable resources are things that very obviously should be. Berry Bushes produce berries, which, in fact, contain seeds. Grass obviously is very renewable in the wild. Saplings are obviously also very renewable in the wild. Making things worse is that there's no good way to deal with fire until fairly late game.

If there is a way to restore her to her Don't Starve mechanics, while allowing the team ways to deal with or mitigate her weaknesses, that would be preferable to keeping her in the terrible state that she's presently in. Simply slowing down how fast fire spreads in the game would give players ability to deal with the spread of the fire to minimize destruction. If Klei wants to do a DEVELOPER side fix for Willow, how about these things?

• Develop Grass, Twigs, and Berry Bush "seeds" craftable, so Grass Tufts, Saplings, and Berry Bushes can be renewable resources.
  • Science Machine/Alchemy Engine level Refinement:
    • 5/10/20/40 Berries = 1 Berry Bush.
    • 5/10/20/40 Twigs = 1 Sapling.
    • 5/10/20/40 Grass = 1 Grass Tuft.
• Develop a low tier way to fight fires.
• Develop craftable fire resistance clothing.
• Simply slow down how fast fire spreads, so players have a chance to cut down trees, dig up grass tufts, saplings, berry bushes, etc. and to actually fight the fire.

There are better solutions that add to the game that do not necessitate breaking Willow (or any other character).

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[Frosty_Mentos]

On 12/29/2016 at 6:48 AM, JohnWatson said:

I never understood this "characters don't need to be balanced" line of thought. Sorry, but it shows here that you don't have sufficient knowledge or interest in game design. There's a clear problem of balancing if you look at your Encounters list and it's chock-full of Wigfrid players. You can even look at the Community Market listings, and it shows that the cheapest character-specific skins are from Willow, Woodie, and Wes, and that's because they are the least used characters. The only reason why Willow and Wes skins are not cheaper than they already are is because they look nice.

You could say that singleplayer games don't need balance, because who cares about what you do alone, though I'd still recommend balancing singleplayer characters. However, in multiplayer games, PvP or not, balancing characters is important to allow characters to be played equally. If balancing is not important, then why not implement ridiculous changes such as turning Wolfgang's 2x modifier into 5x, or completely remove all of Wickerbottom's already negligible downsides? There's a reason why characters should not be overly powerful or overly useless.

Yes, stats and perks are not the only factor that tells how often a character is played. For example, Wilson is popular because he is shown in most promotional art and videos and he's the default selected character when you join a server. You could say that Willow, despite being one of the worst characters, should not need buffing because you don't bother about stats, but the countless other players that do bother about stats don't care about what you think and they will choose the character with superior stats. If there are characters that are better and characters that are worse, there will always be an imbalance.

All I know for sure is that Whackzay (one of the best Willow players) is going to be terribly disappointed if he learns about Willow's nerfs. Too bad he isn't active anymore.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

I am sorry but what you said about the "everyone needs to be equal" is rather crap. If you want everyone be equal and fair then everyone would have same perks and disadvantages, which would make none chars any special. Willow has her advantages due to summer and winter, the caves disadvantage is not great, but there is not much to cave after ruins are done and such. I don't like the freezing too and that she has no more immunity, which sucks, but they make it unfair in PvP and fighting things like dragonfly while she is enraged, by being the only character who could solo her in any stage without worrying about fire damage, removing overheating would be not logical due to her human traits, she is not some fiery magical elemental, and all chars powers comes from their natural or getting the power from Maxwell.

You simply think narrowly and want some chars like Willow to have singleplayer traits, which some arent even good for multiplayer. If you don't see the advantages she gained besides the freezing then you really don't know how she actually works, and I do like some Willow pros, and try to make the best what can be done with her. I simply don't understand your wish for making old Willow comeback, if you don't like her traits then just go use the mod to "fix" her. At first I thought so too and made those "PLS REBALANCE WILLOW" posts, then really saw that klei is not gonna do anything about it because in wise perspective she is great. If my 2000 hours played only Willow doesn't prove this to you, then I got nothing to reply with anymore.

#WillowIsFine

[FistfulOfZen]

5 hours ago, Mantas said:

I am sorry but what you said about the "everyone needs to be equal" is rather crap. If you want everyone be equal and fair then everyone would have same perks and disadvantages, which would make none chars any special. Willow has her advantages due to summer and winter, the caves disadvantage is not great, but there is not much to cave after ruins are done and such. I don't like the freezing too and that she has no more immunity, which sucks, but they make it unfair in PvP and fighting things like dragonfly while she is enraged, by being the only character who could solo her in any stage without worrying about fire damage, removing overheating would be not logical due to her human traits, she is not some fiery magical elemental, and all chars powers comes from their natural or getting the power from Maxwell.

You simply think narrowly and want some chars like Willow to have singleplayer traits, which some arent even good for multiplayer. If you don't see the advantages she gained besides the freezing then you really don't know how she actually works, and I do like some Willow pros, and try to make the best what can be done with her. I simply don't understand your wish for making old Willow comeback, if you don't like her traits then just go use the mod to "fix" her. At first I thought so too and made those "PLS REBALANCE WILLOW" posts, then really saw that klei is not gonna do anything about it because in wise perspective she is great. If my 2000 hours played only Willow doesn't prove this to you, then I got nothing to reply with anymore.

#WillowIsFine

I am not sure what your argument is. You contradict yourself several times.

1) "If you want everyone be equal and fair then everyone would have same perks and disadvantages, which would make none chars any special." That is exactly the opposite of what we're arguing. We want Willow to play different. Right now she's a weak clone of Wendy with trash advantages, crap Sanity mechanics, and a death sentence in Winter.

2) "they make it unfair in PvP"... Full stop. Who seriously cares about PVP? There's like 100 PVP enabled servers TOTAL. That's like... less than 0.33% of all servers. No, sorry, if you're going to make an argument that cites <1% of the total population of players, that's not even worth the time to talk about it.

3) "which some arent even good for multiplayer". Circular argument. Your assertion is the same as your conclusion. Her old bonuses were FINE for multiplayer. You even proved that they were fine by bringing up "fighting things like dragonfly". Her flaw "burning down the camp", is a function of poor fire mechanics and overall lack of early game remedies for fire protection, exacerbated by stupid players that don't know how to deal with fire in the first place. The people that wiped because a Willow burned their camp down were the same people that got wiped out by Red Hounds at day 30. Ice Flingomatric largely eliminates that downside, but it's an expensive solution to the problem.

4) "really saw that klei is not gonna do anything" Not with this attitude. Nerfing Willow because kids don't know how to play doesn't make it okay to nerf her. It's an embarrassing reason to nerf her. I don't know how a self respecting developer would care about the opinions of obvious noobs with 4 hours of play time crying about how a Willow burned down their base on their unsecured server. It takes 2 twigs and 2 grass to burn someone's base down. You don't even have to play Willow. If you can't get enough material for a torch on a server, then the server is probably near done, anyhow.

FUN FACT: A torch is better in every way than Willow's lighter except for the fact that it has relatively low durability.

5) "If my 2000 hours played only Willow" If the only character you've played is Willow, then you don't have any idea how broken Willow is compared to the other characters. PS, this is an "appeal to authority" argument. ... Your 2000 hours of playing Willow doesn't make you an expert. In Don't Starve, I have played Willow to 100-150 days in survival, with only a few "oops" moments when the Sanity dropped after a Hound attack. Willow's negatives are manageable, as are ALL of the negatives for all the characters (yes, even Wes).

Are you arguing that Willow is somehow OP compared to characters like WX or Wickerbottom or Wigfrid, all three widely considered the best characters in the game? Wigfrid has the worst early game disadvantage of the bunch, and it's all but totally negated by her advantages. Wickerbottom's doesn't even matter, because she can jump straight to Alchemy techs and get Ice Box fairly early. And who sleeps, seriously? I seriously don't understand what your point is.

Willow is, and has always been, a challenging character to play, intended for players who have put time in with Wilson to unlock her. She isn't easier. She's harder. The problem was that DST noobs who never even played Don't Starve saw Willow and thought she looked cool and wanted to play as her. They didn't realize what "start fires when nervous" really meant and haven't put in enough time to develop any Sanity strategies. So the first time some Willow burned down their base, the bee babes flipped out and the first thing a 12 year wants to do is shriek until they get their way. And Klei folded like a cheap suit, afraid to drive away their 8-14 year old demographic.

If Klei cares what noobs want over more experienced players, then they're going to be marketing their games to shrieking kids for the foreseeable future and will have to throw stupid amounts of programmer hours at fixing NONISSUES like Willow that most developers have the spine to reply "working as intended". All of this just to appease an age group that won't care in a month. That's fine if that's what they want to do, but the kids don't have the money.

Willow is the least played character in the game right now. Clearly she is NOT fine.

#WillowIsNotFine #MakeWillowGreatAgain

[FistfulOfZen]

Let me break things down for people still arguing against the proposition.

Klei spent how many hundreds of programming hours to fix something that WASN'T BROKEN in order to appease people that aren't even playing the character anymore.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

Infinite Lighter than only she can use.
No stupid bear. Don't steal Wendy's gig.
Fire immunity.
Bring back the "Oops!" & "Tee hee!"

Willow wasn't for noobs. Now she's for nobody.

[FistfulOfZen]

Also, for all those still arguing against the proposition, here's Willow's Don't Starve wiki entry: http://dontstarve.wikia.com/wiki/Willow

Notice: "Nickname: The Firestarter".

What part of "fire starter" is confusing? #WorkingAsIntended

Apparently now she's the "The Freeze to Deather", because adolescent whiners gonna whine.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[Ecu]

6 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

1) "If you want everyone be equal and fair then everyone would have same perks and disadvantages, which would make none chars any special." That is exactly the opposite of what we're arguing. We want Willow to play different. Right now she's a weak clone of Wendy with trash advantages, crap Sanity mechanics, and a death sentence in Winter.

I would say that Willows advantages have their own uses.  Just because you specifically don't fine said uses appealing to your own play style, does not mean others might feel differently.  She may have a pet, but to call her a clone of Wendy is just exaggerating, her mechanics play quite differently when compared to Wendy.

8 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

2) "they make it unfair in PvP"... Full stop. Who seriously cares about PVP? There's like 100 PVP enabled servers TOTAL. That's like... less than 0.33% of all servers. No, sorry, if you're going to make an argument that cites <1% of the total population of players, that's not even worth the time to talk about it.

At the time of posting this, it is actually approximately 4.5% of the total servers that are PVP enabled.  I've posted the link for a site that actually tracks the statistics on the currently hosted servers.  It doesn't really support your argument when you do not actually use factual information to back up your position and instead misrepresent it.

Granted, 4.5% is not a great amount and it is fairly obvious that the game is not balanced or focused around PVP play.  I would agree that it probably shouldn't be either.

13 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

3) "which some arent even good for multiplayer". Circular argument. Your assertion is the same as your conclusion. Her old bonuses were FINE for multiplayer. You even proved that they were fine by bringing up "fighting things like dragonfly". Her flaw "burning down the camp", is a function of poor fire mechanics and overall lack of early game remedies for fire protection, exacerbated by stupid players that don't know how to deal with fire in the first place. The same people that died because Willow burned their camp down were the same people that got wiped out by Red Hounds at day 30. Ice Flingomatric largely eliminates that downside, but it's an expensive solution to the problem.

Actually it isn't a circular argument.  In singleplayer, her starting fires only affects that player.  It is an individual challenge to offset her benefits in said scenario.  However in multiplayer, that ability becomes a team challenge as it affects other players that share a base with her player.  This leads to unintentional griefing, sometimes even by experienced players (if they end up in an unfortunate insanity state).

No other character suffers from this aspect.  Even Wes, who is an intentionally bad character, is not a detriment specifically to the team the way Willow would if reverted.  As such, it was more appropriate to change her to return her negatives to individual challenges, like the other characters.

This is a natural part of game design and especially so when taking a singleplayer game and moving it to multiplayer.

19 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

4) "really saw that klei is not gonna do anything" Not with this attitude. Nerfing Willow because kids don't know how to play doesn't make it okay to nerf her. It's an embarrassing reason to nerf her. I don't know how a self respecting developer would care about the opinions of obvious noobs with 4 hours of play time crying about how a Willow burned down their base on their unsecured server. It takes 2 twigs and 2 grass to burn someone's base down. You don't even have to play Willow. If you can't get enough material for a torch on a server, then the server is probably near done, anyhow.

Actually it is perfectly understandable in a multiplayer environment to nerf a character who is causing problems.  Whether intentional or due to ineptitude with said character, if it is causing problems on average, it becomes a target for change.

21 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

5) "If my 2000 hours played only Willow" If the only character you've played is Willow, then you don't have any idea how broken Willow is compared to the other characters. PS, this is an "appeal to authority" argument. ... You're 2000 hours of playing Willow doesn't make you an expert. In Don't Starve, I have played Willow to 100-150 days in survival, with only a few "oops" moments when the Sanity dropped after a Hound attack. Willow's negatives are manageable, as are ALL of the negatives for the characters.

I would actually say that someone with roughly 2000 hours on Willow is a reasonable authority on the topic.  While it can be fallacious to appeal to authority like this, it can also be true.  One needs to actually weigh the factual basis in of the authority to determine validity.  In this case, @Mantas can indeed cover methods to play the current incarnation well, under multiple circumstances, which would give some solid legitimacy to their claims on it's play.

31 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

If Klei cares what noobs want over more experienced players, then they're going to be marketing their games to kids for the foreseeable future. That's fine if that's what they want to do, but the kids don't have the money.

Honestly, you should really stop being disrespectful to Klei and/or people discussing with you on the forums here.  It really could get you banned from the forums and have your topics locked.

Regarding your comment on Klei supporting new players.  With every game, we were all new players at one point in time and we bought the game because it appealed to us.  As such, balancing games such that they play better for new players is actually one of the most beneficial design strategies in the game development business.

In DST specifically, the characters are all just slightly altered play styles for the most part, not the core progression of the game.  The actual progression of the game is handled via the other systems of crafting, exploration, base building, mod hunting, etc.  Characters in general are a very minor aspect of the game, but the first thing a new player experiences.

As such, it makes perfect sense that the characters play well regardless of skill.  Wes is the only exception to this as he is specifically and intentionally a poor character meant to be an added challenge.

[FistfulOfZen]

51 minutes ago, Ecu said:

I would say that Willows advantages have their own uses.  Just because you specifically don't fine said uses appealing to your own play style, does not mean others might feel differently.  She may have a pet, but to call her a clone of Wendy is just exaggerating, her mechanics play quite differently when compared to Wendy.

It's a pet that does less than Abigail. It designed to sit there, get destroyed, eat up resources, and take up a valuable inventory slot. That's it. It's trash, and it's not even original trash. It's second hand garbage.

Quote

At the time of posting this, it is actually approximately 4.5% of the total servers that are PVP enabled.  I've posted the link for a site that actually tracks the statistics on the currently hosted servers.  It doesn't really support your argument when you do not actually use factual information to back up your position and instead misrepresent it.

@Ecu, I took a poll of servers last night, and I referred to that data. And at PEAK hours, there's <5% PVP enabled servers? Get out of here.

Quote

Granted, 4.5% is not a great amount and it is fairly obvious that the game is not balanced or focused around PVP play.  I would agree that it probably shouldn't be either.

I'm glad you agree that it's not even relevant. It's what's called an "appeal to the exception". If you agree that it isn't relevant, why are you bringing it up if not just to be a contrarian?

Quote

Actually it isn't a circular argument.  In singleplayer, her starting fires only affects that player.  It is an individual challenge to offset her benefits in said scenario.  However in multiplayer, that ability becomes a team challenge as it affects other players that share a base with her player.  This leads to unintentional griefing, sometimes even by experienced players (if they end up in an unfortunate insanity state).

That's an assertion that's based on your opinion. In the same way, Wes's crap stats mean that the team is operating at less than 100% strength, and he doesn't even have any advantages to balances it out. Should we change Wes, too? Webster makes it dangerous to use pigmen strategies in the team, and requires using spiders instead, a generally inferior ally that causes insanity. Change Webster, too?

Quote

No other character suffers from this aspect.  Even Wes, who is an intentionally bad character, is not a detriment specifically to the team the way Willow would if reverted.  As such, it was more appropriate to change her to return her negatives to individual challenges, like the other characters.

Totally disagree. Wes means the team is running at less than 100% from the get go and never recovers. He will always put the team a few steps behind, requiring more resources with no advantage. Same thing. #BuffWes?

Quote

This is a natural part of game design and especially so when taking a singleplayer game and moving it to multiplayer.

Uh, no, it isn't. Appeal to authority you don't have.

Quote

Actually it is perfectly understandable in a multiplayer environment to nerf a character who is causing problems.  Whether intentional or due to ineptitude with said character, if it is causing problems on average, it becomes a target for change.

Again, no, it isn't. Appeal to authority you don't have.

Quote

I would actually say that someone with roughly 2000 hours on Willow is a reasonable authority on the topic.  While it can be fallacious to appeal to authority like this, it can also be true.  One needs to actually weigh the factual basis in of the authority to determine validity.  In this case, @Mantas can indeed cover methods to play the current incarnation well, under multiple circumstances, which would give some solid legitimacy to their claims on it's play.

Nope, saying "yes, it is" doesn't validate his authority.

Quote

Honestly, you should really stop being disrespectful to Klei and/or people discussing with you on the forums here.  It really could get you banned from the forums and have your topics locked.

I'm not being disrespectful, Ecu. I'm trying to meet you in the middle, but you keep rebuffing me. You are the one being disrespectful and picking fights with people across several threads. :/

Quote

Regarding your comment on Klei supporting new players.  With every game, we were all new players at one point in time and we bought the game because it appealed to us.  As such, balancing games such that they play better for new players is actually one of the most beneficial design strategies in the game development business.

Noobs are the least qualified people to comment on a character's balance. Your assertion falls flat. Also, the vast majority of games that have multiple character options has WIDELY varying skill characters. From DOTA2 to Overwatch. From Tekken to Capcom vs Marvel. This assertion is utterly and hilariously unsubstantiated. I don't mean to be rude, seriously. But it IS ridiculous.

Quote

In DST specifically, the characters are all just slightly altered play styles for the most part, not the core progression of the game.  The actual progression of the game is handled via the other systems of crafting, exploration, base building, mod hunting, etc.  Characters in general are a very minor aspect of the game, but the first thing a new player experiences.

And there's the "differences are trivial" argument. No, sir. They aren't and they don't have to be. There's no "rule" anywhere that supports this assertion.

Quote

As such, it makes perfect sense that the characters play well regardless of skill.  Wes is the only exception to this as he is specifically and intentionally a poor character meant to be an added challenge.

LOL "it makes perfect sense that the characters play well regardless of skill.  Wes is the only exception..."

You make an assertion then disprove it in the very next sentence, @Ecu. :/ Wes being "specifically and intentionally" a "poor character" is fine, but Willow being "specifically and intentionally" a dangerously difficult character is not fine... because... reasons. I really don't get it. I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you. I really am, but I don't get it.

I really don't know why you're so invested in arguing the counter position, since we agree on 75% of the issue. We get it. You don't like how she's implemented, but you don't think Willow should have her original Don't Starve disadvantage that made her "The Firestarter". Okay. Thank you.

I think we're at the point where you don't have anything else to contribute to the thread but being a contrarian on this point. For some reason, you don't want "the Firestarter" to actually start any fires.

[Arlesienne]

6 hours ago, Mantas said:

I don't like the freezing too and that she has no more immunity, which sucks, but they make it unfair in PvP and fighting things like dragonfly while she is enraged, by being the only character who could solo her in any stage without worrying about fire damage, removing overheating would be not logical due to her human traits, she is not some fiery magical elemental, and all chars powers comes from their natural or getting the power from Maxwell.

Here. Do what I do for my players and give Willow a longer grace period. Go into a wildfire. You will barely survive a few seconds beyond the preposterous three she has now without beginning to overheat, so I wouldn't call this overpowered. The fly is even hotter. Remember the lava pools.

That said, I consider Willow a female equivalent of Wes: hard in the hands of a newbie, fascinating when played by a veteran. I sometimes miss having strong perks, but then I recall the fun personalities of these two and no longer mind.

PS Please no verbal abuse of Bernie. He is essentially a lore item, which hints at Willow's unhappy past. And that's a magnificent example of thoughtful game design, a la Lucy. But apart of that, he is useful - but you've got to drop him near a player either farming nightmare fuel or just struggling with sanity. I'm the most surprised, but this little guy has saved lives just because I dumped him in the camp.

[FistfulOfZen]

14 minutes ago, Arlesienne said:

Here. Do what I do for my players and give Willow a longer grace period. Go into a wildfire. You will barely survive a few seconds beyond the preposterous three she has now without beginning to overheat, so I wouldn't call this overpowered. The fly is even hotter. Remember the lava pools.

That said, I consider Willow a female equivalent of Wes: hard in the hands of a newbie, fascinating when played by a veteran. I sometimes miss having strong perks, but then I recall the fun personalities of these two and no longer mind.

She is strong and weak at the same time. Even veterans will have "oops" moments with her, but that's what makes her such a fun character to play. She's the Russian Roulette character of the bunch. "The Firestarter" starts fires. When you're playing with Willow, you have to always keep that at the back of your mind. She's a high performance aircraft, not a crop duster. Don't know how to fly her? You'll get burned.

Sadly, she was nerfed because she was working as intended, but too many people couldn't handle her, so Klei dumbed her down for kids that aren't even playing her anymore, because they are using their unbalanced Naruto mods. Sadder, otherwise reasonable people are defending the current state of Willow, while she seems to be widely regarded as unplayably broken.

#MakeWillowGreatAgain

[Ecu]

18 minutes ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Again, no, it isn't. Appeal to authority you don't have.

Actually I am an reasonable authority in game design, specifically in multiplayer game design.  I've been studying game design for around 20 years, with a stronger focus on it over the past 5.  I've contributed to various games over the years.  So as a game designer, I'd say I'm a reasonable authority.

1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Nope, saying "yes, it is" doesn't validate his authority.

No the validation for his authority, in this case, is his experience with the character that gives him reasonable authority on the subject.  Unless something he has stated regarding the character is factually incorrect, there is no reason to disregard their experience out of hand.

1 hour ago, FistfulOfZen said:

I'm not being disrespectful, Ecu. I'm trying to meet you in the middle, but you keep rebuffing me. You are the one being disrespectful and picking fights with people across several threads. :/

The tone of your writing is actually quite disrespectful.  I specifically choose my words to try keep offense to a minimum, instead of using agressive speech that leads to offense.  The end result is that your recent posts have indeed come off disrespectful.

As for commenting that I'm picking fights, that is completely incorrect.  I am merely posting my viewpoints on suggestions on the forums here, giving educated opinions based on my experience and understanding.  Some members of the forum have actually thanked me via private messages, asking me to continue to critique suggestions, as well.

2 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Noobs are the least qualified people to comment on a character's balance. Your assertion falls flat.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstood what I stated, I did not say that it was new players that decide the balance, but that Klei is balancing the game so that new players do not ruin the experience for other players.  So that everyone, regardless of experience, can still enjoy the game.

2 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

And there's the "differences are trivial" argument. No, sir. They aren't and they don't have to be. There's no "rule" anywhere that supports this assertion.

Actually that is indeed what the characters are, currently.  Given the current design of the game as a whole as well, it is indeed the "rule" for characters as set by Klei.  So, it is actually a reasonable argument.

2 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

LOL "it makes perfect sense that the characters play well regardless of skill.  Wes is the only exception..."

You make an assertion then disprove it in the very next sentence, @Ecu. :/ I really don't know why you're so invested in arguing the counter position, since we agree on 75% of the issue. We get it. You don't like how she's implemented, but you don't think Willow should have her original Don't Starve disadvantage that made her "The Firestarter". Okay. Thank you.

I think we're at the point where you don't have anything else to contribute to the thread but being a contrarian on this point. For some reason, you don't want "the Firestarter" to actually start any fires.

I'm invested in arguing against points I feel are poor design decisions because I do not wish them to be implemented.  As long as you continue to assert that your position is best, there will be a reason for me to post counterpoints.  As such, your own comment could be turned on you...we get it, you want Willow to be reverted to her DS state, so there is no reason to continue the discussion no?  It doesn't add anything for you to continue to assert the same thing.

2 hours ago, FistfulOfZen said:

Sadly, she was nerfed because she was working as intended, but too many people couldn't handle her, so Klei dumbed her down for kids that aren't even playing her anymore, because they are using their unbalanced Naruto mods. Sadder, otherwise reasonable people are defending the current state of Willow, while she seems to be widely regarded as unplayably broken.

She was working as intended in DS.  For DST, obviously the same incarnation did not work as intended and as such was changed.  This is also a perfect example of the language that is disrespectful as well.

[Donke60]

I was thinking of the internal flame idea that @Ecu explained how about to go along with it when your sanity was high you would be warmer now it would have a threshold so you didn't overheat but I thiught since Zen says its willows drawback is a "death sentence" for winter I thought that this would alliety some of the headache of course this doesn't change her freezing when low but i thought it would make a nice balancing act of high during winter and low during summer I still don't really understand why you can't just keep taffy or pumpkin cookies with you but I'm not a Willow player and never was.I wish @Mantas came back to what they would like to see changed if it was or when sanity becomes big issue but thats all I got for now anyways

 

[Arlesienne]

Wait, Willow freezes faster? When was that implemented? I am rather perplexed; I've never noticed .

I'd say her singleplayer firestarting was removed due to being a serious hazard to the entire map (which, unlike in DS, does not belong to just me) rather than just herself like freezing while insane. That makes sense. Three seconds of fire immunity? No idea since it is protected from being overpowered through overheating, which is always in place and ought to be as she is a human being. Now, the lighter mechanics being changed still can be understood by me. An infinite lighter meant invulnerability from Charlie. Nearly nightvision. Pair this with her sanity boost, however small it can be: you could either hold it all the time when not using tools, because there would be no penalty for doing so, OR lighting a cluster of trees for said boost to stack.

The real thing, I believe, is that Willow's sanity management is incredibly easy. You have to periodically light fires anyway. Then - in multiplayer - you can, if desperate, cook green mushrooms with it for a notable boost of 15. Bernie is more for Wilson (my experiences always had him saving other people's rears, even when crossing obelisks, I wouldn't carry him) than for any Willow remotely worth their salt. I miss him in singleplayer for lore reasons: if you know a bit about pyromania, you're aware of it often starting as a side-effect of affection void and abuse. Bernie must have literally been her (only?) childhood friend.

One thing is clearly rather broken: nightmare lights. Willow gains rather than loses sanity with them. Get to the ruins to build them wherever you roam and you're next after Charlie. Oddly nobody mentions that .

"She is strong and weak at the same time. Even veterans will have "oops" moments with her, but that's what makes her such a fun character to play. She's the Russian Roulette character of the bunch. "The Firestarter" starts fires. When you're playing with Willow, you have to always keep that at the back of your mind. She's a high performance aircraft, not a crop duster. Don't know how to fly her? You'll get burned.

Sadly, she was nerfed because she was working as intended, but too many people couldn't handle her, so Klei dumbed her down for kids that aren't even playing her anymore, because they are using their unbalanced Naruto mods. Sadder, otherwise reasonable people are defending the current state of Willow, while she seems to be widely regarded as unplayably broken."

Sorry for not quoting. My phone said it loves me no more.

My personal opinion on the reasoning behind the nerf was dual:

- players supposedly picked her to grief; this is fallacious: the flaw lay in their behaviour, not Willow's design, and after her infinite lighter was removed, making a torch as any character became the trend;

- unlike whenever a different character goes insane, Willow becomes dangerous to more than herself; every other character, unless their partners go help fighting nightmares, is the only one subjected to attacks - singleplayer Willow torched the land if insane, except this punished only said Willow as she played alone; multiplayer demands that the most meagre of safeguards be prepared against one person ruining the experience of a group.

The character whose nerf makes little sense to me in multiplayer is Woodie. His perks only made him a danger to himself - why was he changed to a somewhat suckling beaverling?

[FistfulOfZen]

Let's start here.

(1) "Pyromania is an impulse control disorder^[1] in which individuals repeatedly fail to resist impulses to deliberately start fires..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania

Her original advantages:

• A "sweet lighter" with no durability.
• Total fire immunity.
• Regain Sanity from fires, depending on their size. (the source of her +0.6/min Sanity mod on her lighter)

Her original disadvantages:

• Low maximum Sanity at 120, (second only to Webber at 100).
• She starts fires when she's nervous. <-- Clinical Pyromania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania)

Her present advantages:

• She has a crummy lighter that will only last 10 minutes, but then will eat important resources afterwards.
• She has a teddy bear that acts like Wendy's Abigail, except it sits in one place, eats up an inventory slot and materials, and doesn't attack.
• Fire "resistance", but she still takes considerably fire damage.
• Regain Sanity from fires, depending on their size. (the source of her +0.6/min Sanity mod on her lighter)

Her present disadvantages:

• Low maximum Sanity at 120, (second only to Webber at 100).
• She will freeze to death if she's insane if away from a heat source, even in the middle of the day in Autumn. <-- NOT Clinical Pyromania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania)

Please tell me where in her "present" configuration she is a Pyromaniac. I light candles and enjoy having the ambiance of a cozy fire place going, too. Doesn't make me a Pyromaniac. The only thing that makes me a Pyromaniac is if I "fail to resist impulses to deliberately start fires".

 

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Wait, Willow freezes faster? When was that implemented? I am rather perplexed; I've never noticed .

When away from a source of heat, Willow cannot retain heat while Insane. That's the new disadvantage of the "The Firestarter". Not sure where you got "freezes faster". She can freeze in Autumn in the middle of the day. Her disadvantage will straight up kill her.

 

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I'd say her singleplayer firestarting was removed due to being a serious hazard to the entire map (which, unlike in DS, does not belong to just me) rather than just herself like freezing while insane. That makes sense. Three seconds of fire immunity? No idea since it is protected from being overpowered through overheating, which is always in place and ought to be as she is a human being. Now, the lighter mechanics being changed still can be understood by me. An infinite lighter meant invulnerability from Charlie. Nearly nightvision. Pair this with her sanity boost, however small it can be: you could either hold it all the time when not using tools, because there would be no penalty for doing so, OR lighting a cluster of trees for said boost to stack.

No, the reason her fire starting was removed was because people whined. Period. That's it. And those people never learned how to play her or the game and have since moved on, or no longer play her as a character anyway.

Before I address your argument more directly, I want to understand what specific points of her original character are you arguing against?

[Arlesienne]

I, my good sir/madam, see no need for arguing. I have enough ability to finetune Willow to fit my group's tastes and intend to keep it this way. Happy New Year 2017!