Major game overhaul: Suggestions and ideas


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This is a place where anyone can leave suggestion and ideas for our future overhaul mod.

If you have an idea for an item, program, enemy or anything else you can post it below. No ideas are bad ideas!

You can also help us by leaving a suggestion on what we should name the mod

 

If you are interesting in being part of developing the mod you should go over to HumanKirby's topic:http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/58283-who-would-be-interested-to-work-on-a-big-mod

 

Edit: This is the latest information on our mod. If you haven't already you may want to look at it before making a reply http://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/59022-invisible-inc-game-overhaul-pre-development/

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Ok, so for example:

 

As Idea for the name I have New Operation Protocols. It shows that both sites upgraded there tactics and gear and would explain new game mechanics.

 

For the gameplay, I played around with new guard abillities. They can use the 2 guard teleporters to create a shortcut and they call emergency guards if they see a dead guard. This first aid guards reduce the guards KO time around them and revieves dead guards (they will switch to a new mode called regenerating. it works like KO but the value cant be changed by the first aid guard. the regenerate can be manipiulated by hitting them with tazers). The first few levels they are flimsy and run if they see you. After a certain security level, they will be exchanged with a tough guard. They are KO immune and if they are killed, they regenerate. They cant shoot at you, but the nearest 2 guards will be alerted if he sees you. They could be easily added of an model point of view by just changing the Plastek guards and Elite Plasteks guard white clothes to red. 

 

I also played around with some augment which work on death, like agents using medgels onself while death (which is overpowered) and the death bodys still giving some vision and sound.

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HumanKirby mentioned the mod will likely end up similar in scope to Captain's Edition mod of FTL; I'm not familiar with that mod but I'm assuming the same relation extends to the Long War mod of Xcom.

 

I think there's 2 aspects to a large gameplay mod: More strategic depth with the goal of adding more replayability, and fixing up problems with the core game. Xcom's Long War mod did the former in a long list of ways but they basically gave the player more tools which makes the game easier, then made it harder by packing more aliens in each mission. In terms of fixing problems, vanilla Xcom is known for being unreasonably difficult and frustrating early game but once that is overcome the game is too easy for the 2nd half of the campaign, and finishing the campaign was essentially a waste of time due to how strong you become. Long War smooths out the early game difficulty and makes the mid-late game worthwhile.

 

Klei claims that the DLC will make both the campaign and endless mode longer and give them more strategic depth, so the game could be changed quite drastically as it is. So I'm hesitant to overthink potential gameplay changes for the mod but at the same time there isn't a huge list of problems the base game has, and adding more strategic depth might reveal new problems. Nonetheless here's some ideas, some of which I'm not sure if I even like personally but it's a possibility and hopefully within the modding limitations:

  • More than 4 off-mission item slots
  • Somehow give the player more control on what items and programs they can be offered at Nanofab and Server Farms, they keep adding more programs but still the same number offered makes the RNG frustrating.
  • Possibly the same thing with Detention Centres
  • Let the player rescue up to all the agents, then pick which agents to use for each mission
  • Somehow make that choice of which agents to use meaningful, e.g. different agent perks better against certain map/guard types.
  • Alternatively if that's too difficult or undesirable at least make the player able to rescue a 5th agent, then choose one to retire, so that cherry picking agents in endless mode doesn't involve intentionally getting agents caught only to keep finding them in future Detention Centres.
  • More than 5 max program slots
  • Might need to change Cloaking somehow, at least make it so people aren't invincible once they get an agent with 4 Cloaking 3's. Making it impossible to chain cloak is my favourite option, or make the guards just start shooting when an agent reaches for the cloak button.
  • Might need to change Shock Trap 3 somehow, adding more generated rooms per map and more guards would "water it down" but I still feel like a squad of agents carrying a lot of shock trap 3's can just stroll through a map not caring about anything.
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I've taken to playing the game like a puzzle and would love to see that expanded.

 

I've turned off the end game and play until I get tired of the current group. I have the max of 20 rooms and would like more, and have most all the hard options enabled. I do that rewinds set to max as often it'll take a while to figure out a level.

 

I'd love to see a goal for the approach, and it could get much harder.

 

One thing that would be nice is if you could rescue all the teammembers and rotate them in and out depending on the challenge in from of you.

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I think more stored item slots and rotating team members would not be improvements. In the long term, you'd have every item and every agent and therefore every game would eventually become the same. Additions to the game should make it more replayable, not less; and the game shouldn't require you to play suboptimally (by not collecting every item & agent) in order to preserve replayability.

 

Similarly, more Incognita slots would mean you don't have to compromise. As it stands, you can't have a PWR source, a high-firewall breaker, a low-PWR breaker, Ping, Wisp and a daemon-remover.

 

I think chain-cloaking can be eliminated by requiring cloaking rigs to be equipped like weapons; you can't wear more than one at once. Then either make equipping a cloak cost 1AP (which means you quite reasonably get shot if you try to put on a full-body cloaking suit while a guard is pointing a gun at you) or set off a 2 turn cooldown (so you can't Torque Injectors it to 0) like picking up a portable server.

 

Guards should be able to disarm Shock Traps; once it goes off, the guard who opened the door (or perhaps any guard who gets hit) will be notice and disarm it next time.

 

Net Downlink should probably either be 1AP per device, or "once per turn". Torque Injectors might need a nerf too, maybe "once per turn". Wisp could do with a cooldown, maybe 4 turns.

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I think more stored item slots and rotating team members would not be improvements. In the long term, you'd have every item and every agent and therefore every game would eventually become the same. Additions to the game should make it more replayable, not less; and the game shouldn't require you to play suboptimally (by not collecting every item & agent) in order to preserve replayability.

 

Similarly, more Incognita slots would mean you don't have to compromise. As it stands, you can't have a PWR source, a high-firewall breaker, a low-PWR breaker, Ping, Wisp and a daemon-remover.

I think you're missing the point. The mod would also need to make the game harder so that it balances out the additions that make it easier. You can't simply assume the effect that some of these suggestions would have as if difficulty of the game was to remain the same.

 

If all the mod did was nerf things, it wouldn't add any strategic diversity at all, it would just be taking the base game and limiting the player's options. And likewise if all the mod did was add more/tougher guards and kept the items the same. The game needs to get a lot harder but at the same time the player needs to be given more tools to deal with the added difficulty.

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Actually, I think you missed warfreaks point.  As much as you want to add difficulty and options for the player to overcome that difficulty, you don't want those options to always lead to a single optimal strategy.  Limiting options in some areas is a huge part of what makes this game fun and interesting.

 

 

While I think his ideas in the second part of his post increase the difficulty beyond what I would find fun, I agree with the first part completely.

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Fair enough. He made a lot of points, I didn't touch on everything.

 

In the long term, you'd have every item and every agent and therefore every game would eventually become the same. Additions to the game should make it more replayable, not less; and the game shouldn't require you to play suboptimally (by not collecting every item & agent) in order to preserve replayability.

I'm wracking my brain over the 1st sentence, part of me agrees but I'm wondering why is that a problem that the end result of endless is the same setup. If you're playing to "win" then reaching your ideal setup is inevitable in a mode that doesn't end until you stop playing. I agree that the journey should be varied somehow. The only main variance with each run at the moment is detention centre, nanofab and server farm RNG. More could be added perhaps.

 

I suppose the extreme amount of RNG in Xcom in nearly every mechanic of the game makes it so every playthrough isn't identical, even if you do most things the same like same starting country, same general order of research, which is still the smart thing to do for the most part as long as it's a winning strategy. One example is your snipers get injured from previous missions, then you get a roadway map where the snipers would have helped immensely to win the trench warfare. On the macro-scale each run can be very similar, but on the micro-scale each mission can be very different.

 

At the moment Invisible Inc doesn't have nearly as much RNG and layers of gameplay mechanics. But it's hard to tell what we have to work to make a better experience until we start experimenting with the mod.

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I think you're missing the point. The mod would also need to make the game harder so that it balances out the additions that make it easier. You can't simply assume the effect that some of these suggestions would have as if difficulty of the game was to remain the same.

 

If all the mod did was nerf things, it wouldn't add any strategic diversity at all, it would just be taking the base game and limiting the player's options. And likewise if all the mod did was add more/tougher guards and kept the items the same. The game needs to get a lot harder but at the same time the player needs to be given more tools to deal with the added difficulty.

 

I agree with you, just making the game more difficult would just break the balance.

 

And also, the impossibility of playing with more agents/switching them, the fact that we don't have many storage slots/we can't add new ones, causes the game to become stagnant over time.

 

I can tell because i arrived at day 20 in endless, i got 4 agents, and have most of their slots filled with items, its kind of boring...

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My point here wasn't about difficulty, but replayability. As it stands there are many different viable four-agent teams with different sets of items which you can converge to in Endless mode.

 

I mean, sure, there's an argument that either way there's a single "best" strategy which maximises your chance of survival (or whatever you choose to measure success by in Endless mode), so if you were playing to get the "best" team then you would always start with the same agents and programs and always end up with the same team on day 4. This would obviously kill replayability, but the argument here assumes you know what the "best" team is, and nobody ever will. Replayability comes from trying different teams and seeing what turns out "better"; or it can come from choosing different goals. Allowing the player to collect everything means that even starting with different teams and goals, the game eventually converges to the same "you have everything" state.

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Whoah there calm down everyone. I didn't make this topic for it to turn into a warzone.

In this case I have to give warfreak a point. The point of this mod is not to make you as strong as you can possibly get, or to turn the balance of the game upside down. It's to make the game more fun and replayable.

 

And when we're talking of items, I am aware that some could be better balanced, but instead of a straight nerf, why not make more interesting counters?

There are already the guards that can spot through cloaks, and the same could be done with shock traps, by making some enemies immune/able to disarm them.

 

AaronAlphaNexus1 when you say that the game becomes stale at day 20, that's simply because there is no challenge left. Every mission becomes routine, so the way to get around it is to make endless extend longer.

Higher security levels, stronger enemies and special missions(unless the DLC already adds that). And to balance that, make new, rare high tier items unique to endless.

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One way to keep Endless challenging would be steadily increasing the complexity of completing the objective and/or reaching the exit. We already have exits which require finding a specific access card; this is a simple example of a "lock-and-key puzzle". Missions with multiple "locks and keys" (more generally, actions which have other action(s) as pre-requisite(s)) can have much more variety, and such puzzles can be procedurally generated.

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Does anyone truly want to play one game forever? How about a crazy difficult level available at all times, expecting 4 fully kitted agents with the support of an efficient Incognita you must spend many missions perfecting. Instead of endless ending when you get tired of it, you go through missions gearing up till you think you can beat this end game level. Maybe it could be a multi mission level like the base levels in old X-com used to be, with more rooms and special guards than any of the regular levels.

 

I think that'd be more interesting than trying to stretch out endless forever, which is an impossible endeavour.

 

Replayability would come in the form of "how many days do you require to gear up for this final mission?"

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AaronAlphaNexus1 when you say that the game becomes stale at day 20, that's simply because there is no challenge left. Every mission becomes routine, so the way to get around it is to make endless extend longer.

Higher security levels, stronger enemies and special missions(unless the DLC already adds that). And to balance that, make new, rare high tier items unique to endless.

 

Mmmmh i can agree with you yeah.

 

I'd also suggest to allow the player to free more agents and also to choose which ones are best suited for the mission in question while keeping the number of 4.

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I'm racking my brain trying to come up with an idea that takes into account all of the pros/cons of the change while keeping the game balanced.

 

I've no idea how game devs and modders manage to do this all the time.

 

My one and only humble idea right now is a new mission type:

 

Personnel Enhancement Chamber

I was thinking about how almost every element in the game has a mission type that you can go on that enhances that aspect of your loadout.

Ranging from money-grabbing missions to cybernetics and shopping at nanofabs and server farms.

One element that you can only ever increase between missions are the base Speed/Hacking/Strength/Anarchy.

 

I propose a new mission type that contains a single 'enhancement' chamber that can hold up to 4 agents. It's a one-time use per mission but increases a single stat for all characters by one level for free.

The risk/reward is the chamber will be exposed so the number of characters you can fit in it will depend on how many you need to do other things. Perhaps the chamber takes a turn or two to complete rendering the agents inside unavailable and vulnerable.

 

Perhaps there'll be something like this in the DLC, I cannot wait to find out more about it.

 

 

And an overall Mod Name Suggestion: Invisible, plc.

 

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For me, I play nearly every day as is, but it hits a point where I just end up starting Endless over again.

 

The puzzle aspect is still entirely rewarding. I'd like to see guards that don't follow patterns, or at least simple ones. I LOVE It when I find a single path to a goal that has three guards covering that one path and I need to wait to see that only one possible time frame will work. It's even better if that's not easily overcome by cloaking.

 

More in-level goals would be great. In order to get out of this level, you must turn off this machine, deliver this item to this safe, get this specific key, etc. That would be endlessly replayable.

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Currently in vanilla game, outside of Modded Mk1 guards, there is no cyberwarfare. Incognita hacks a firewall and that is it. Also, every mainframe device apparently has wireless access, it makes no sense. Why not change that? Here is my idea.

 

 

Addition of Mainframe itself. Here are some mockup screenshots for better explanation.

 

Tactical view:

post-263712-0-91350700-1444929897_thumb.

 

Incognita view:

post-263712-0-20720800-1444929843_thumb.

 

Some devices on map are connected to each other with wires (red/blue lines on floor), creating a Mainframe. Each wire connects 2 devices, can't overlap with other wires and can't go outside of the map.

Each device can have an Access Point (little red/blue circle above the firewall icon in Incognita view), representing wireless access to said device. And here's the mechanics change: Incognita cannot access devices without an Access Point. To hack those, player needs to, one, hack other device connected to it with a wire, and two, expose wire connecting these two devices with an agent(nothing fancy, just reveal the map as usual).

 

Example: On screenshots, top Nanofab, Power Generator, Daemon'ed Sound Bug and a Safe create one mainframe. Let's say player wants Nanofab hacked. It does not have Access Point, but PowerGen connected to it does. So hack PowerGen first and then Nanofab.

 

Next change, devices hacked by Incognita now have a friendly firewall, shown in blue. Then device is hacked, it has initial strength of 1. It can be further reinforced with programs.

 

Now, the main element of cyberwarfare. New device, the Mainframe Security Server (marked by yellow rectangle on screenshots). This thing keeps watch on every device in the Mainframe connected to it.

It's game mechanics are as follows:

- Just like Incognita, it has it's own PWR storage, viewable by mousing over.

- It has few programs installed in it, just like Incognita. Each corporation has it's own list of possible programs. Also viewable.

- It has limit how many programs can use in one turn (configurable in campaign settings).

- When triggered and when has enough PWR, it executes it's programs.

- It is hackable, but has way more firewalls than anything else, never has an Access Point, and always has (Arch-)Daemon on it. Once hacked, it is disabled completely.

- It triggers on enemy turn, every alarm level and/or every few turns(configurable)

- It generates PWR based on installed programs and Consoles connected to it's mainframe.

- It cannot use Access Points at all. Devices not connected to Mainframe are safe.

- It hacks Incognita-controlled devices along the Mainframe wires, and just like player it has to hack them in order.

- uses owned programs to reinforce firewalls if there is no valid target present on their turn.

 

Programs used by Mainframe Security Servers are the same ones used by player (with exceptions that won't make sense, like Shade). Servers can have from 2 to 5 programs and can store from 5 to 20 PWR, depends on mission difficulty. Example program list of one server:

- Power Drip - power generator

- Lockpick - breaker

- Wings - utility

- empty

- empty

 

Alongside Mainframe Security Servers there is new device to help players deal with new stuff and increased usage of programs - Mainframe Access Terminal (marked in orange rectangle on screenshots). Mechanics:

- Always has an Access Point.

- Is always connected to a Mainframe

- Multiple can be present, minimum 1 per Mainframe.

- An agent can jack-in, like Monst3r in final mission. If agent can stay jacked-in until next turn, PWR cost and/or cooldown of Incognita programs is reduced until agent breaks the jack-in.

- One terminal can support one agent at a time.

 

Rules to the mainframe mechanics and some of vanilla changes to match them:

- Incognita programs used for hacking can also be used to reinforce friendly firewalls( Lockpick v1 adds 1 firewall instantly, Parasite adds 1 firewall every turn, Wrenches set friendly firewalls to specified level etc.)

- Modded Mk1 guards can only recapture and posess devices with Access Point.

- Console connected to Mainframe with Security Server will generate PWR for that server. Hacking Console with an agent will disable that PWR generation. PWR generated is proportional to how much of it Console has.

- Buster chips can be used to reinforce friendly firewalls and work on any device as usual.

- Internationale's Wireless Emiter augment and similar items detect Mainframe Wires

- Looted safes that reboot after an emp can still be hacked. This retains their use as chokepoints in cyberwarfare.

- Devices retain ownership when EMPed, but reset their firewall strenght to 1 if have changed ownership at least once in current mission.

- Friendly devices can be targeted with programs like Halt, purposefully rebooting them.

- Rebooting devices cannot be hacked by anything, making EMP packs and some programs a viable hacking defense.

- Every Mainframe has exactly 1 Security Server.

- Moving Daemons via Taurus respects Mainframe restrictions(Daemons move to a device within a Mainframe and cannot go past devices of opposite ownership).

- If Security Server use programs that create or install Daemons (like Fool), these Daemons are always reversed.

- Device without an Access Point must be connected to a Mainframe

- Data Blast only affects devices with Access Point

- Drones cannot be connected to a Mainframe(for obvious reasons)

- Firewalls of friendly drones cannot be reinforced. Likewise Servers can't reinforce them either.

- Parasite can be used to cancel opposite side's Parasite. Hosted Parasites do not carry over when device is hacked.

- Siphon now uses stolen PWR to recharge random Security Server.

- Friendly firewalls can have reversed Daemons on them. They trigger when Security Server hacks the device.

-Entire Mainframe system mechanics can be disabled in campaign config. This reverts everything to vanilla game.

 

Difficulty rules with new mechanics:

- missions with difficulty 1 do not have Mainframes at all (everything has Access Point).

- Difficulty 2 has a Mainframe, but no Security Servers yet. These appear at level 3 and above.

- With every difficulty level, number of Access Points gradually decreases. Number of devices connected to a Mainframe increases. Applies mostly to endless mode.

- Every 5 difficulty levels, each mission has an additional Mainframe(2-4 have one, 5-10 have two, 11-15 have three etc.)

 

Proposed new programs:

Search (Incognita only) - use on a device in a Mainframe. Reveals all directly connected devices.

Safeguard - use on a device. Next program used on it will be cancelled. Works both ways.

Worm - plant a daemon on owned device. Servers create Daemons, Incognita creates reverse Daemons.

Pulse - break X firewalls on a device as well as X on any directly connected ones. Friendly fireproof.

Link (Server only) - create new wire, attaching device not previously connected to a Mainframe. Does not work on drones.

Reboot(Server only) - restarts a Console. 

 

Proposed new Daemons:

Silence - removes Access Point on random device. Said device must be a part of Mainframe and cannot be a Mainframe Access Terminal.

Breach - breaks X Incognita firewalls.

Mute (reversed Daemon) - Security Servers do not activate for X turns.

Power Drain (reversed Daemon) - Random Security Server loses X PWR and recharges that much PWR of Incognita. Equivalent of Siphon.

Fork (reverse Daemon) - creates 2 more reversed Daemons on friendly firewalls. Equivalent of Fractal.

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I like your idea, especially the part about the security server, you could also add in the fact that's the deamon source.

 

The only thing i disagree with is the mainframes idea, i simply don't think that they'd use wiring anymore in the 2074.

 

And i think that it would be a good addition for endless :)

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I like your idea, especially the part about the security server, you could also add in the fact that's the deamon source.

 

The only thing i disagree with is the mainframes idea, i simply don't think that they'd use wiring anymore in the 2074.

 

And i think that it would be a good addition for endless :-)

 

Entire Mainframe idea was to limit servers to what can they hack. Defending 5 firewalls at once would be incredibly difficult otherwise. Imagine final OMNI mission, with 2 servers simultaneusly bashing at Security Hub, interrupting Monst3r, taking that vital Camera witch in turn spots your agent, recapturnig a Power Generator and cutting off other agent's path with lethal lasers and create a Daemon or two, all of it at once. Not to mention PWR needed to counterhack. And there are already tough guards on top of this.

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Some reasonable ideas here, though many of them would unbalance things (e.g. making Taurus and Data Blast much worse). This one, though:

"Worm - plant a daemon on owned device. Servers create Daemons, Incognita creates reverse Daemons."

This will break the game, as it becomes possible to trigger Fortune infinitely many times in the same mission.

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Some reasonable ideas here, though many of them would unbalance things (e.g. making Taurus and Data Blast much worse). This one, though:

"Worm - plant a daemon on owned device. Servers create Daemons, Incognita creates reverse Daemons."

This will break the game, as it becomes possible to trigger Fortune infinitely many times in the same mission.

 

Here's the thing, player can already do Fortune farming as is: get Faust and Brimstone and sit in the mission as long as possible. But considering risk/reward and odds stacked massively agains you (every turn there is 20% chance for Daemon. When it installs, 20% chance for reverse, and then 1 in 3 chance you get what you want from possible reverse Daemons), it is not an option. Possible doesn't mean viable. And while I agree it would be gamebreaking, this is where playtesting and game design in general kicks in. Since Cyberboy2000 and HumanKirby's want to make a major game overhaul. bugs, issues and oversights like what you pointed will inevitably pop up. While careful planning will eliminate most of them, games are complicated and even devs can't predict all possibilities. I think balancing should be done in testing phase: set values to what seems reasonable, playtest, and if something turns out to be over/underpowered, adjust accordingly. This is why I restrained from using numbers in my suggestion for the most part, since I know changes like those WILL break something somewhere.

 

As for pointed out exploit, take Lightning program as example. Potentially gamebreaking ability (KO any guard you wish regardless of armor) is kept balanced with requirement of TAG, removing it afterwards, and a whooping 8 PWR cost and hefty CR price tag. Using it even once per mission is a massive investment, and making it a regular tool requires dedicated team setup with TAG pistols and/or Wisp and ample PWR generation, possible only in late endless mode.

 

In similar fasion, Fortune farming with Worm, while possible, would be very difficult. First, use Worm to plant reverse Daemon. With increased numbers of them, Fortune would become rarer. Then Security Server has to hack device you planted it on, witch might not happen, and if it does happen and device in question is not inert ( like looted safe ), it could screw you over. Also, since reverse Daemons are powerful as is, Worm program itself should be "Difficult but Awesome", with high PWR cost, cooldown and price, taking valuable program slot. If that is not enough, simply exclude Fortune from spawning with Worm.

 

If you found this reply offensive, I'm sorry, didn't wanted it this way. I simply enjoy talking about this stuff. And to all people on this thread, have a nice time, enjoy discussions and suggestions. Cheers!

 

EDIT:

@AaronAlphaNexus1 - Without a Mainframe, I see 2 possible options:

1. Security Servers have X tile range, scales with difficulty. This has drawback of being highly dependent of map layout. If you play with 14+ rooms generated or rooms themselfs are big like in OMNI mission, Servers can do little. If they happen to be placed in a cluster of devices, they become very powerful.

2. Security Servers watch over X set devices, scales with difficulty. With no Mainframes, this seems like the best option. There is need to mark protected stuff with something for clarity, but overwise should be balanced.

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Here's the thing, player can already do Fortune farming as is: get Faust and Brimstone and sit in the mission as long as possible. But considering risk/reward and odds stacked massively agains you (every turn there is 20% chance for Daemon. When it installs, 20% chance for reverse, and then 1 in 3 chance you get what you want from possible reverse Daemons), it is not an option. Possible doesn't mean viable.

 

This used to be averted (at least in a probabilistic sense) by the Felix daemon, but is now indeed an exploit. Getting Fortune from Faust is unlikely, but if you can hang around on the level indefinitely, your possible reward is unbounded.

 

It's true that it's generally difficult to rule out unwanted behaviour from complex systems; but there are methods of designing systems to guarantee particular behaviours will or won't happen, if these behaviours can be identified beforehand. In this case the desired behaviour is bounded rewards in each mission, and this principle is already conformed to by most of the game's mechanics (e.g. you can't steal money or items from the guards who appear at later alarm levels, or from Validate). To enforce this principle, we can e.g. check recursively whether each mechanism triggering a reward is either available a finite number of times, or is triggered only by other mechanisms which enforce this principle.

 

My preference would be simply to replace Fortune with something else which provides a temporary benefit rather than something which lasts beyond the end of the mission - e.g. "guards and safes have X% more money to steal for the next Y turns."

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