Don't Starve Hard Mode: Fatigue/Old Age


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I'm not a fancy forum person so sorry that i don't have pictures or anything, this will look very bland and boring and short.

My idea of hard mode: fatigue is as follows: Players now have to worry about fatigue and must monitor it throughout the day, this limits the actions one can do per day and if maxed will knockout the player where they stand. The various actions which would increase fatigue would range from the simplest action such as picking grass to combat and more.

Obviously picking grass isn't the hardest thing to do, so it wouldn't hit the fatigue bar/meter much, however actions like mining gold, fighting, creating heavy structures, would raise your fatigue faster than simple tasks such as picking grass.

Ways to lower fatigue would be eating certain foods, standing still, walking would not have an effect on fatigue unless you want hard mode to be hell, sitting or laying down on something a player can craft (new item for this), and maybe different characters would have different perks to lowering fatigue, ex: willow lighting fires. Fires relax her so... that's my logic behind that.

A certain streamer also had additions to my fatigue suggestion such as old age and/or wearing down. in the case of WX eating gears would help rebuild him since the more you play with him the more he wears down, water would speed up his wearing down process. Eating gears would rebuild him, this would make it so eating gears at certain periods in the game would become a necessity to maintain him at top performance. For human characters, eating weird things such as monster meat would wear the body down so eating proper things like vegetables and meat would keep them in top shape, of course time itself would also be a factor in wearing down.

Old age would make it so your fatigue would increase with every action done. Old age should be reversible in my opinion with the spawn "Fountain of Youth." I know it wouldn't make the game any difficult if you could find the fountain and simply return to the same spot over and over so i think it should teleport to a new location on the map on every use to avoid abuse. The fountain would remain in the same spot and would reverse the aging effect by X amount of days (waiting on feedback for this) The fountain will need to refill itself after every use and cannot be used again for a X amount of days (also waiting on feedback) Old age would also make the character move a tiny bit slower make the character weaker in terms of combat, making it a priority to keep the body in good shape. weapon durability would not be effected so it would be best to keep the body strong to get the best use out of your weapon.

Now, i understand that this is quite a lot and would require a ton of work, but i had the time to write it all up and in my opinion suggestions serve multiple purposes, some of which include possibly becoming new content, and maybe even inspiring new ideas. Whether or not my ideas are realistically doable is up to Klei or an amazing modder who could possibly create this... BUT ANYWAYS this is my idea for Don't Starve Hard Mode, a streamer did add to my idea however i don't know the advertisement rules so i am hesitant to mention who, besides he did mention he didn't mind if i did or didn't however i simply can't take full credit so i at least have to mention that someone did influence this suggestion.

Please let me know what you guys think! i'm open to more suggestions and credit will be given from forum posts. I appreciate everyone who takes the time to check out my post. Have a wonderful day and remember, Don't Starve! 

Additions/Edits

My idea of knockout is scrapped, after some feedback i think it would be best if the character is just
 not able to make any more actions for a certain amount of time. Once the fatigue gets maxed, the player cannot perform actions for around 20 seconds. After the 20 seconds your fatigue will go down to 3/4ths full and any actions performed will have a 50% increase in fatigue per action. I think this would be ok, but of course i'm still asking for feedback.

Must Do's

-Think of "rewards" or positives to being able to maintain fatigue
-Make clear positives other than simply being able to avoid the negatives to the fatigue system
-Give cookies to everyone who's discussing this with me! Thank you.

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My one thought is that it kind of undermines the story theme of this being an incredibly dangerous, hostile world if a character even in theory could live long enough to see old age.  I'm not sure what the survival rate is on real-life castaways but I'm willing to bet that human lifespan (and mental health) drops dramatically if placed in a situation without any other human contact for prolonged periods. Considering this is a realm where losing your mind means the shadows themselves will violently consume you, it doesn't look like a stable life naturally leading to golden years is ahead of anyone in the Don't Starve world.

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My one thought is that it kind of undermines the story theme of this being an incredibly dangerous, hostile world if a character even in theory could live long enough to see old age.  I'm not sure what the survival rate is on real-life castaways but I'm willing to bet that human lifespan (and mental health) drops dramatically if placed in a situation without any other human contact for prolonged periods. Considering this is a realm where losing your mind means the shadows themselves will violently consume you, it doesn't look like a stable life naturally leading to golden years is ahead of anyone in the Don't Starve world.

Yea... i see your point. i guess my idea is more for entertainment than for story purposes. The people i've mentioned this to all think it would be a lot of fun though. Simply judging this for the fun aspect, what would you think Midnight? Also what is your opinion on fatigue? you didn't mention anything about that.

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Well, I'm not against fatigue in theory but it's important to remember that when it's present in a game, it's usually as an attrition mechanic. It's meant to force the player consider the cost of their actions. Don't Starve already has quite a few of those as it is -- you have to weigh the time that food gives you vs sanity vs the health risks you can put yourself in to more quickly restore either. Sanity already functions a lot like how you're suggesting fatigue should, just centered around "important" or risky things like exploring the underground or fighting a boss.

 

I'm not saying that a new attrition mechanic would be a bad thing, it'd just probably need to complement new content in general the way sanity did. I don't think it's likely the base DNA of the game is going to change that dramatically again in the near future, though. 

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Well, I'm not against fatigue in theory but it's important to remember that when it's present in a game, it's usually as an attrition mechanic. It's meant to force the player consider the cost of their actions. Don't Starve already has quite a few of those as it is -- you have to weigh the time that food gives you vs sanity vs the health risks you can put yourself in to more quickly restore either. Sanity already functions a lot like how you're suggesting fatigue should, just centered around "important" or risky things like exploring the underground or fighting a boss.

 

I'm not saying that a new attrition mechanic would be a bad thing, it'd just probably need to complement new content in general the way sanity did. I don't think it's likely the base DNA of the game is going to change that dramatically again in the near future, though. 

so i had a lot written in response to this and i accidentally closed my browser so i'm just going to summarize what i had...

i enjoy the feedback you are giving me and i'm enjoying my discussion with you.

i can see what you are saying about fatigue being similar to sanity, however the point of fatigue is to make the game more difficult, i've asked a few players who have over 1k days about this and they did agree that they like the idea.

i understand completely that my idea may be unrealistic due to how much work it would require to actually make.

one thing i don't think you're understanding however is the fact that fatigue would be added more like an add-on, it wouldn't BECOME the game, just an option you can have to challenge yourself. Just like you can play Vanilla DS or RoG, you would be able to choose whether or not you want Fatigue to be included in your world. the purpose of fatigue would be to change how players go about their gameplay. instead of doing everything quickly within a span of a few days, they'd have to divide it throughout a couple more days instead.

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For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of fatigue or injury in games. It is one thing to end up in a battle with 5 HP left and another when that happens and you only have half your usual speed remaining. I cope with it when a game that I like has it, but I'm not a fan of it (and most of those games actually want the player to win. DS is not that kind). I also feel that the game as is already often forces you to slow down, like when night and/or winter come. I'm not sure if further slowing down is a desirable situation.

 

If fatigue would be a thing, it would be an absolute must to dial back the hound frequency. Right now, you have about three guaranteed safe days between attacks, one of which tends to get wasted on collecting and organizing the spoils, resetting the traps, recovering, and lets not even start about one of those creatures burning down your resources. Going on, say, a mining journey as is already often is a gamble, but to think that if an ambush happens the character wouldn't even be able to run away? It would make time management a real drag. Not difficult to much as not fun. Unless, perhaps, adrenaline would be a thing for dangerous situations only, but then I think that should be a boost anytime and I'm not sure what would happen to the character once the rush is over and their fatigue meter is low. Insta-knock out? And what is your idea for knock-out anyway? To never rise again or after x game hours? In case of the latter, in what condition (keeping in mind environmental effects like night, winter, and RoG summer)?

 

I do think a personal upkeep system of sorts could enrich the gameplay and I'd like to see sleep be expanded on one day, but I'm not sure what you suggest is the way to go. Also because half its proposed mechanics are more of a sanity deal. Or at least, not with some more consideration of how the gameplay would have to change to keep the game experience fun. Hard mode should still be fun.

 

And though the old age topic's technically closed, I wish to comment on the idea of a respawning fountain. In my main save file, I have a tam o'shanter. Best sanity restoring hat in the game. I can have it with me at all times if I so choose. And still I get into trouble with my sanity, because I have to switch it out with my beefalo hat and football helmet often enough. My point being that even if you have a restoring item you can take with you, that doesn't mean the game's easier for it. A fountain on one spot you'd have to return to every once in a while while there's a whole map with multiple layers worthy to have your attention is not something that can be abused. And having to track through that whole map for the umpteenth time to refind an item essential to a functioning character (that you may not have anymore at that time)... doesn't sound all that fun to me.

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For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of fatigue or injury in games. It is one thing to end up in a battle with 5 HP left and another when that happens and you only have half your usual speed remaining. I cope with it when a game that I like has it, but I'm not a fan of it (and most of those games actually want the player to win. DS is not that kind). I also feel that the game as is already often forces you to slow down, like when night and/or winter come. I'm not sure if further slowing down is a desirable situation.

 

If fatigue would be a thing, it would be an absolute must to dial back the hound frequency. Right now, you have about three guaranteed safe days between attacks, one of which tends to get wasted on collecting and organizing the spoils, resetting the traps, recovering, and lets not even start about one of those creatures burning down your resources. Going on, say, a mining journey as is already often is a gamble, but to think that if an ambush happens the character wouldn't even be able to run away? It would make time management a real drag. Not difficult to much as not fun. Unless, perhaps, adrenaline would be a thing for dangerous situations only, but then I think that should be a boost anytime and I'm not sure what would happen to the character once the rush is over and their fatigue meter is low. Insta-knock out? And what is your idea for knock-out anyway? To never rise again or after x game hours? In case of the latter, in what condition (keeping in mind environmental effects like night, winter, and RoG summer)?

 

I do think a personal upkeep system of sorts could enrich the gameplay and I'd like to see sleep be expanded on one day, but I'm not sure what you suggest is the way to go. Also because half its proposed mechanics are more of a sanity deal. Or at least, not with some more consideration of how the gameplay would have to change to keep the game experience fun. Hard mode should still be fun.

 

And though the old age topic's technically closed, I wish to comment on the idea of a respawning fountain. In my main save file, I have a tam o'shanter. Best sanity restoring hat in the game. I can have it with me at all times if I so choose. And still I get into trouble with my sanity, because I have to switch it out with my beefalo hat and football helmet often enough. My point being that even if you have a restoring item you can take with you, that doesn't mean the game's easier for it. A fountain on one spot you'd have to return to every once in a while while there's a whole map with multiple layers worthy to have your attention is not something that can be abused. And having to track through that whole map for the umpteenth time to refind an item essential to a functioning character (that you may not have anymore at that time)... doesn't sound all that fun to me.

My idea for this Hard Mode would be an option, if someone doesn't WANT to play with fatigue they wouldn't have to. I understand your point about how the world already slows you down, however fatigue wouldn't be as demanding as you may think i'm intending. Food itself would lower your fatigue throughout the day by reasonable amounts, your fatigue bar wouldn't be small to begin with, and characters would also regain energy through time. Fatigue would only be a problem if you are doing TONS of things in a single day, and maybe if it's still too harsh, maybe having your fatigue cut in half as a new day begins could be a thing.

Slowing down as you have higher fatigue? ok lets throw that out the window, i can see how difficult things can be with that.

By knockout i don't mean death, of course not, that's too extreme. My idea of being knocked out would similar to say... getting knocked out by a mandrake. If that's too harsh due to the fact that it could cause lots of problems if you're in combat, i guess it could be changed to simply not being able to make any actions for a certain amount of time. ex: cutting trees, gathering, or fighting. When your fatigue gets maxed the player cannot perform actions for maybe 30 seconds? After the 30 seconds your fatigue will go down to 3/4ths full and any actions performed will have a 50% increase in fatigue per action. I think this would be ok, but of course i'm still asking for feedback.

i admit i have been focused on making my idea of hard mode a challenge, but i have not thought of what could make it fun, i'll definitely think of that.

now about your thoughts on the fountain, i actually agree with you. nothing much to add onto that i guess but you do have a point. thanks for your post.

 

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My general rule with evaluating whether an addition to the game's difficulty is whether it adds or takes away interesting decisions to be made. I'll call it "good hard" and "bad hard". This isn't just a response to this topic, I may be linking back to this later.

 

 

"Good hard" requires lateral thinking, adapting to one's environment or situation, or decent and inventive planning. That roguelikes often can offer all of the above with simple development plans is why they're seeing a resurgence.

 

"Bad hard" is a bottleneck that requires you to simplify your play or even interrupts it with activities that don't build on the game's ethos and may even detract from it. Annoying, unforgiving but-required-to-progress minigames embody this.

 

One less-loaded way to put is "innovation" vs "memorization". Any game with memorization-based difficulty can be beaten with enough perseverance and leaves you feeling more exhausted than accomplished if that's all it has. Innovation-based difficulty is what makes you feel like you're strong or brilliant for having sorted through many decisions and making the best ones. It's why Dark Souls is so engaging, because it plays off rewarding your technical skill (memorization) with many interesting decisions to make (innovation).

 

 

I'm not saying your idea about fatigue and old age etc. is bad or good when described out of context of a larger content paradigm, but it can easily be either depending on how and how sensibly it was implemented/balanced. Don't Starve actually has good examples of both. Winter is a great example of "good hard". It requires you to adjust your plans to prepare for it but if you manage to do so skillfully you have tons of prizes and rewards on the table, not to mention decisions to be made with said spoils. Summer in its current form is "bad hard", where there is pretty much only a couple of set ways to counter it and even doing so perfectly involves pretty much just killing time in a fireproof wasteland waiting for your game to resume.

 

Hope this helps clarify.

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My general rule with evaluating whether an addition to the game's difficulty is whether it adds or takes away interesting decisions to be made. I'll call it "good hard" and "bad hard". This isn't just a response to this topic, I may be linking back to this later.

 

 

"Good hard" requires lateral thinking, adapting to one's environment or situation, or decent and inventive planning. That roguelikes often can offer all of the above with simple development plans is why they're seeing a resurgence.

 

"Bad hard" is a bottleneck that requires you to simplify your play or even interrupts it with activities that don't build on the game's ethos and may even detract from it. Annoying, unforgiving but-required-to-progress minigames embody this.

 

One less-loaded way to put is "innovation" vs "memorization". Any game with memorization-based difficulty can be beaten with enough perseverance and leaves you feeling more exhausted than accomplished if that's all it has. Innovation-based difficulty is what makes you feel like you're strong or brilliant for having sorted through many decisions and making the best ones. It's why Dark Souls is so engaging, because it plays off rewarding your technical skill (memorization) with many interesting decisions to make (innovation).

 

 

I'm not saying your idea about fatigue and old age etc. is bad or good when described out of context of a larger content paradigm, but it can easily be either depending on how and how sensibly it was implemented/balanced. Don't Starve actually has good examples of both. Winter is a great example of "good hard". It requires you to adjust your plans to prepare for it but if you manage to do so skillfully you have tons of prizes and rewards on the table, not to mention decisions to be made with said spoils. Summer in its current form is "bad hard", where there is pretty much only a couple of set ways to counter it and even doing so perfectly involves pretty much just killing time in a fireproof wasteland waiting for your game to resume.

 

Hope this helps clarify.

Yea i recently got this punched into my head. i thought of how to make the game more difficult/challenging but not everyone finds that fun. i'm going to be thinking of how maintaining fatigue can be more beneficial/rewarding and making this be more enjoyable. Whether or not my idea becomes reality i'm enjoying my time talking to everyone here, so yet again i want to thank you and everyone else that takes the time to read this massive wall of text we're placing here on the forums.

Also, i am editing the original post so please take quick glances now and again.

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